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12 GEORGE JOSEPH
GEORGE JOSEPH C905/12/01-03/VHS 01-01
MENTAL HEALTH TESTIMONY ARCHIVE
GEORGE JOSEPH
C905/12/01-03/VHS 01-01
Original on DVC-Pro
Copy on VHS
Interviewed by Pauline Abbott-Butler
Camera by Ken Langdown
Transcribed by Julie Sharman
August 1999
`When you’re ready… [laughs]…’
`Yeah…’
`Ok…Hi George’
`Hello Pauline’
`Thank you for coming to… be interviewed for the Testimony Project…’
`That’s alright… it’s alright…’
`…for Mental Health Media…’
`Yeah…’
`Well, I’ve got a number of questions which I intend to ask…’
`Yeah…’
`And… so let’s start off by giving your full name?’
`My full name is George Andrew Joseph…’
`Andrew Joseph… how old are you?’
`I’m forty at the moment, but next week I’ll be forty one.’
`Forty one… uh huh… and what’s your date of birth?’
`August 16th…’
`19…?’
`…’58’
`1958… ok. So where were you born?’
`I was born in this country.’
`Uh huh… where?’
`St Mary’s Hospital sort of [???]… that used to be… on the Harrow Road in Paddington.’
`Ok… uh huh… yes…what was the name of your mother and father?’
`My mother’s name was Ruth Joseph, and my dad’s name was Raymond Joseph.’
`How many brothers and sisters have you got?’
`Mmm… let me think now… I’ve got one older brother… I got… a brother that’s younger than me… and I got one sister who’s older than me.’
`Uh huh…’
`I had another brother, but he… he died of cancer…’
`Ok… how long ago was that?’
`About… must be three years ago… I miss him, but…’
`Mmm’
`Can’t do nothing about it, you know… do you mind if I just take my glasses off to wipe my face?’
`Yeah…’
`I get very hot.’
`Uh huh… [pause]. What sort of… back… which country were… were your parents from?’
`From Grenada…’
`Both parents?’
`Both parents.’
`Ok… do you know which part of Grenada…they were from?’
`Mmm… no… no… and I have… I know they’re from Gren [ph]… that’s what they told me, they’re from Grenada, but… I don’t know which part, you know…’
`Mmm. Have you ever been to Grenada?’
`Never. I’ve been to poor… [laughs]. I’ve never had… really had the money to go there you know…’
`Ok… would you like to go to Grenada?’
`I would like to go, very much…’
`Ok…’
`Oh yeah… and then one day fucking get a decent job, save some money up, I… I might go.’
`What sort of home did you have? What sort of house did you live in… your parents live in?’
`Oooh… is it terraced houses are the one that are straight together?’
`Uh huh…’
`Terraced house… it was a… it was a big house… upstairs, downstairs, and… let me think… [pause]… about four bedrooms…’
`Ok…’
`…two toilets… and… umm… sitting room…’
`Ok…’
`…it was a big house.’
`It was a big house? What all… all the children lived in the same house?’
`No… umm… my sister… who’s older than me, she came from Grenada…’
`Uh huh…’
`…and my oldest brother came from Grenada. They were born in Grenada, but I was born in England, and Roy was born in England.’
`Ok… that’s interesting…’
`Yeah…’
`Were your mum and dad married? Were they married?’
`Yeah, they were married, you know…’
`Yeah… uh huh…’
`Had a few arguments, but they just sort of… you know, they were in a… [inaudible]… of anything and that…’
`Ok… What type of work did your mum and dad do?’
`Well… umm… my mum was a dressmaker… my dad worked for the BBC as a… service technician…’
`Uh huh…’
`That’s about it. My mum did a lot of private dressmaking work…’
`Uh huh… what… what were… what were the names of your sisters and brothers?’
`Oh… umm… my sister’s name’s Gemma. My oldest brother, his name is Garfield, and… Roy, who’s younger than me… is Roy… [laughs].’
`Ok… ok… and… the two… children of… who were born in Grenada, did they carry the same name? Is it the same father?’
`Yeah, it’s the same father…’
`Ok…’
`…same father…’
`Uh huh… so tell me about your childhood experiences…’
`Oohh…’
`Did you have a happy home life?’
`I did, I did… I worked in a… in the twenty third of Willesden Scouts, Boy Scouts… [pause]… I used to play a lot of football in… Queen’s Park… during the summer… used to do a lot of swimming in Queen’s Park swimming pool, but… I started smoking cigarettes at a young age and… that kind of put a stop to me to being a… a sports person, you know, because… I couldn’t let… my health wasn’t full, you know, so, in… I was… slowly gave it up… playing football… and table tennis, and swimming…’
`What position did you play in the football, when you were playing?’
`Well, when I was playing I was the goal keeper [laughs].’
`Did you enjoy it?’
`I enjoy it, yeah… used to be nice. You wake up… Sat… early Saturday morning about eight o’clock, you get ready, meet your friends… you take the bus to Kensal Park and… the… the… the scout leader would be there waiting for you… he’d say to you, `Right… I want you all to come and get changed and let’s see if we can beat these guys… from the other… boy scouts camps, you know… used to be real fun…’
`Yeah… How did you get into the goal keeper position?’
`Well… it was those guys… [laughs]… that I was in the Scouts with, they said, `Oh, you can… you can’t run very fast but you’re good at saving balls, so listen, you go into the goal and… that’s your position.’
`Ok, so that’s how you happened to be…’
`Yeah…’
`…the goal keeper?’
`The goal keeper, they…’
`Ok…’
`…all said [inaudible]…’
`Ok… so you said you had a happy home life…? Is that correct? [both talking together]’
`Yeah, I had a very happy home life.’
`Ok…How did you get on with your brothers and sisters? What sort of relationship did you have with them?’
`Just… you know how brothers and sisters… umm… do… just good friends, you know…’
`Mmm…’
`Umm…’
`What about those that came from the Caribbean…?’
`Ohh…’
`How old were they, because that’s an interesting area, for me…?’
`Umm… let me think… I was very young… when my sister came over… and then… [pause]. She came over and she was wearing glasses and… all of us that… that was born in this country, started teasing her [laughs]… started teasing my sister, you know… and she… after a while we realised she hated it… she’s not… like a… `hill billy’ you know… umm… umm… think of her name… `country bumpkin’, you know… [laughs]…’
`Ok… It was not only your sister who came from Grenada?’
`Yeah…’
`Your brothers as well…’
`My brother…’
`Ok… How… how old was… how old were they? How old was your sister at the time when your brother…?’
`Umm… I think she was about… seventeen, and I was around… eight, seven…’
`How old was your brother?’
`My oldest brother? My oldest brother… he’s in… he’s in his fifties now…’
`But he was older than your sister?’
`Yeah, he was older than my sister..’
`Ok… How did you receive them? You said that you were teasing her about glasses…?’
`Oh… yeah…’
`But… did you see them as your… sister and brother?’
`Yeah… I… I… I saw them as my… as my sister… ‘cause my mum told me she’s my sister, that… she was in the West Indies because she couldn’t afford to bring her over at the time when she came here… and… ‘
`Ok…’
`We just grew up together.’
`Ok, that’s… that’s fine. Ok, so let’s move on to your school days.’
`Yeah…’
`Tell me something about… the name of the Primary School that you went to… where it was, how you settled in… and how you got on there?’
`Oh… Primary School… well, the Primary School that I went to, was Kensal Rise Infants… and… where I used to live in Kensal Rise with my parents was Harvest Road, and the school used to be at the bottom of the road… at the top of the road… so… I used to just go to school… try… try to learn, but… there’s a word they have for it now, dys… dyslex…’
`Dyslexic?’
`Dyslexic… I was like that, where…’
`Ok…’
`…I would see words and it would just be a big jumble, you know… and… I couldn’t sound words or write it properly… but over the years I’ve learned how to read better and… write better. I’ve been to colleges, like Beethoven Street College… that’s in Paddington, where they taught me… Maths, English… lots of general studies, you know. From Infant School in Kensal Rise, I went to… Cheyne-Welling [ph] School… that was this… still in Kensal Rise, but… a little further away…’
`After Secondary?’
`Yeah, Secondary, that’s the…’
`Uh huh..’
`And…’
`How did you get on there?’
`I got on alright… it was… it was very interesting. I tried to learn, but I… I couldn’t cope… so I had to go into a special class where this teacher taught me joined up writing… spelling, but… I… it’s a bit difficult, you know… [pause]. There’s a lot of general studies, but… I can’t… well, not as… as great as the other students or pupils at the school you know, they were more… you know, [clicks fingers] like that… and they got on with it, where I had to struggle to understand…’
`Why do you think you weren’t able to cope?’
`The only thing I can think of is like… maybe if my… if my mother, you know… sat down with me… showed me a book… get me interested in reading and… get me motivated to read, maybe I could have learnt a bit more…’
`Mmm’
`Cause usually, once I left school, I… I used to come home, she’ll ask me oh.. what had I did today, and I said `I’ve done this and I’ve tried to learn that’, but… with my mother… at a young age I couldn’t really spell my name, so… my mum would ask me, `How do you spell your name?’, and I would say, `Oh… G..O..E…’, she says, `No, that’s not it’, you know, and she’ll repeat and repeat… and… in the end I couldn’t cope with it, but then… her way of solving it was… a beating. It worked… it worked… but I didn’t like the fact [laughs] I had to go through all of that, just to learn my name, you know…’
`Why do you think she reverted to beating to help you to learn?’
`Because… [pause] I… I believe they’ve got… like… with every young person, they reach a certain age where they want to just… rush out and do what they want, or misbehave and… get away with it, but… I couldn’t… I couldn’t do that at home because my… my parents were very strict and… and… I had to behave myself, so…’
`Do you think that’s a common… way of… treating children, amongst Caribbean West Indian people at the time?’
`Yeah…’
`Did you think that was…?’
`I think it was…’
`…a common thing?’
`Umm… well it was common in our house, but I know… I knew it was… well, only a very few people was in the same situation as me.’
`Mmm’
`So… at the time I thought… well… I’m not learning, I’m misbehaving, so… I have to get a beating, and that’s what I got…’
`So you came to accept it…?’
`I came to accept it, yeah… yeah…’
`So just tell me something more… how you progressed in school… in the Secondary school… but at Secondary school stage now?’
`Ahh…’
`And what sort of school was it… what sort of teachers you had, what sort of friends, that sort of thing?’
`Oohh, what else did I think… Secondary school, it was… very nice… summers… we used to do Woodwork and English and Maths, Geography, and Science… History… we did a lot of work, you know… but… seeing as I wasn’t able to like… pick up and learn it like everyone else, I had to go to special classes where they teach me… English and Maths.’
`Did you understand why you were sent to Special School… special class?’
`Yeah, because I wasn’t educated enough… well I wasn’t like educated like the rest of the school… I was like the… dummy, you know?’
`Mmm… how did you feel about that?’
`At the time I felt like… I wish I could have been like everyone else, but… I was accepting it because… that’s how life was for me… so I accepted it and just carried on the best I can and… did what I had to do.’
`And how were you looked upon by your friends… and other school children?’
`They never teased… they never teased me…’
`Ok…’
`They don’t tease me, they just… they treat me the same like any other… any other person who went to that school. We all played football, we all went to the… swimming pool on a Friday morning…’
`Mmm’
`Did a swimming lesson, then came back home by the bus, or walked…’
`Mmm… what were your parents’ attitude about you being in a special class, did they welcome it… so as to help you to learn, or what…?’
`Yeah, they help… they welcome it to help me to help me to learn, because… at home it was like an… it… they had to pay rent… not rent… mortgage…’
`Ok…’
`So every little bit of money had to go towards the mortgage and… food… and you know, shoes or clothes, just… then had to go to school. [Pause]…’
`Do you think they were under a lot of pressure in terms of… trying to keep up that… paying that mortgage and…?’
`I think they were…’
`…caring for you all?’
`I think they were. I didn’t really notice it, but I was very young at the time so I didn’t know how to… well… ask questions about the mortgage and things like that… that wasn’t on my mind.’
`Mmm’
`The only thing I worried was where I was going… where am I going to get my next pair of shoes? I don’t want to wear short trousers any more… [laughs], so… I just had to cope like everyone else, in our family.’
`Mmm…Were you treated the same do you think, as the other brothers and sisters?’
`Yeah, yeah I was. I was treated the same… you know, we all got on… playing… had a little garden at the back, we played football or…’
`Ok, so…when you left school, did you… did you have any qualifications?’
`No’
`Did you get any O Levels, CSE’s or what any…?’
`No… no…’
`Nothing?’
`No… nothing.’
`So what year did you leave…? Do you remember what year you went to… your Secondary school?’
`Secondary… ooh… [pause] umm… I think it… [pause] [laughing in background]… I can’t remember.’
`Ok… do you know what… how old you were when you left the Secondary school?’
`I think I was eleven.’
`When you left?’
`Umm…’
`No… probably when…’
`In Secondary school like…’
`You know when you leave the… the Primary school…?’
`Oh, that’s like the Infants, Primary…’
`Primary…’
`Then you go to Secondary, then you go to High School…’
`Did you go to…Further Education College?’
`No… what… I mean… all I can remember is that I went to Kensal Rise [ph] Infants…’
`Uh huh’
`Kensal Rise Primary…’
`Uh huh’
`Then I went to Chamberlain Road [both together]… Secondary’
`Secondary…’
`And I went to Brun [???]… like… it was called Kilburn Grammar School…’
`Ok…’
`That was in… Salisbury Road, Kilburn… ’
`So you went to a Grammar School?’
`Yeah I went to Grammar School…’
`Ok…’
`And then… about three, four years after I was there… it… they changed it into a comprehensive…’
`Ok…’
`’Cause like… the Boys’ School used to be on this side, and the Girls’ School used to be on the other side of the road… so…’
`So you went to a single sex school?’
`Yeah…’
`All Boys School?’
`Yeah, that’s what I was at first… ‘
`Ok…’
`Then they… they put the two schools together and that’s… Brunsleigh [ph] Girls’ School and Kilburn Boys’ School Grammar… they mixed it together when I was there…’
`Ok… yeah I’m clear now, yes. So when you left… your Secondary School where did you go? What happened?’
`Hmm….’
`How old were you at the time, do you remember?’
`Hmm… this is a hard one…’
`Sixteen… seven…?’
`When I left Secondary School, I was… fifteen… I didn’t… I didn’t… bother with sixth form classes or college course…’
`Ok…’
`I wasn’t capable as them at Maths, ‘cause they were doing real… some real hard Maths, you know… I can’t remember what it was called, but…’
`[Laughs]’
`…I couldn’t handle it, you know… so… my first job was working in Parkwell [ph], Abbey Road… this… it was a factory where they… made springs, like bull worker [ph] springs, pen springs [ph]… springs for car… part… car parts… nearly everything general, you know…’
`Ok…so what did you do there?’
`Well, I worked as a heat treatment… like… like the machine would turn out the… the bull worker [ph] springs, then I would… take the springs from around the back… put them into the oven… like… we enter forty… them forty Celsius… I think that’s right… Celsius, and then… I would leave the springs out for about… half an hour to an hour, then I would… after half an hour, or hour… then I would… open the heat… the oven… let it cool down… then I used to have these special gloves where I wouldn’t get burnt my hands. Then I used to take the… the shelves of the springs out… tip it into this… had a wheelbarrow, then take the springs round the back, dip the springs in the oil… and then I just stacked them up. It was hard work… [laughs].’
`I was just going to say… [laughs]’
`It was definitely hard work, but…’
`How did you happen to get that job? You went and looked for it, or…? What happened?’
`No… I get them from the Job Centre.’
`Ok… so you went to the Job Centre…’
`I went to the Job Centre and got it, but… ’
`Well… why did you choose that sort of a job?’
`I thought it would be easy but it wasn’t… [laughs]. It was like… oh, it was hard work, and… the money was rubbish…’
`Ok… and you were… how old were you at the time? You said you left…?’
`About sixteen… I was...’
`About sixteen…’
`I was unemployed for about a year, and then…’
`At sixteen…’
`I got a job at sixteen…’
`So that was your first job?’
`Yeah, that was my first job, you know…’
`Did you ever think of leaving?’
`I did leave… [laughs]’
`How long did you stay there for and when did you leave?’
`Oh… I left… I must have left about… five weeks… [laughs]…’
`[Laughs]’
`It’s so… it’s some skivers I used to hang out with, you know… all they wanted to do was to go clubs, and check women and… you know, have a good time… and… when you’re working, it’s like… you haven’t got enough time to do anything… so… and plus, my brother… Roy went… started up a… small… what do you call it, disco…’
`Ok…’
`Where we used to play at parties and… small clubs, you know… and…’
`Ok…So you left after about five or six weeks, then what happened after?’
`I was unemployed for about another year again… then I found another job working… a friend of mine’s helped me to find this job… in Kingsbury [ph], working as a… warehouse person, but… it wasn’t really boxes it was more like… car tyres… bus tyres… lorry tyres… those real big… engine…’
`Mmm…’
`Things like… umm… oh you know, you have…’
`We can get back… come back to that…’
`Yeah… well… I worked there for two years, that’s like stacking… stacking tyres, putting them away… first thing in the morning we would like have a cup of tea or coffee and then we’d start work eight o’clock… then… a trailer…what do you call those things? [Pause] Those big lorries with… a… a container…’
`Mmm’
`One of… one of those would pull up in the morning outside the… outside the… the building, then we had to empty out all the tyres or whatever’s in there. Empty it out, put it into the loading bay, then there was a kind of… there was this… this kind of ladder thing that goes up… all the way, like… there was three floors, ground, second and top, and then it used to go… you put the tyre on, then it goes all the way up to the second… if you’re not working on the second then it’d go to the top, and then all you do is take the tyre off and then stack it… and… used to do a lot of work like that, and then from about… after one o’clock there was an hour break from one to two… and then, when we was in the… in the afternoon, we’d… we would check invoice saying… what tyres we have to get, how much we’re going to get and the name brand of the tyres… so we used to a lot of work where we’re shifting things all the time…’
`Did you enjoy that work?’
`Yeah, I enjoyed it but… well… I’ve got a habit of always cutting myself down, like in wage, so that I can get the work, but not really… the finance to live properly, and that’s what usually happens. Maybe after one, two years I…I couldn’t live properly and then I would like, oh [inaudible]… `I’m bored of this and then move on’…’
`What sort of support did your parents give you in terms of the type of work that you were… doing?’
`To be honest I didn’t really… she did help me… all they wanted me to do was to go out to work, paying my way… help them pay… for the bills. I didn’t mind that because I know if it wasn’t for any of them I wouldn’t be here, you know, so… I used to put a… a… some money towards the bills… and just about… you… the rest of… my mum would say `Oh, don’t bother… we’ll cope’, you know…’
`Did you… other… all the children… make a contribution as well?’
`Yeah, we all did. Whilst we was working, we made a contribution, and when we was on the dole we made a con… contri… [ph]…’
`Contribution?’
`…contribution.’
`Uh huh… yeah…’
`And…’
`Ok, so after you left… Kingsbury…’
`Yeah…’
`Where did you go from there?’
`Oh…’
`What did you do?’
`Well… [pause]… I can’t remember… [pause]… ah yeah… I worked in Colindale .’
`Colindale…’
`As a… there was a factory called Allied Manufacturers…’
`Oh right..’
`And then I… I was a machine operator on a machine called a `Holesman’ [ph], where… where one end would be cutting this way, and then the end that I was cutting at would be cutting at… cutting like that, you know… across it…’
`Uh huh…’
`It was good work but…’
`And what… what were you making or…?’
`Oh, it was for like wardrobes with… see what they used to do, they used to have to get a plank of… wood… then they would stick formica on the top of it, and then the re-fit [ph], so… and then we cut it down to size and then… send it off to somewhere else where they would make into cabinets or… wardrobes, or things like that.’
`So how long did you stay there for?’
`I stayed there for about a year and a half. I… I was… I met a girl… and… [pause] worked with like… [laughs]… it was… it was slowly drifting out the window [laughs]. I was so involved with this girl, I really loved her, and…’
`What was her name?’
`Her name was Julie…’
`Julie what?’
`Julie Roon [ph]…’
`Uh huh…’
`I really loved her’
`How old was she?’
`She was the same age as me…’
`Which was…? How old were you at the time?’
`I was… about… [pause] twenty one…’
`Ok…’
`’Cause… we both went to the same school…’
`Ok…’
`And then we just got to know each other… and I loved her a lot but then… we just drifted apart, you know…’
`How?’
`She told me once, she never keeps a man for too long, you know… she’s… she’s like a free spirit you know, you…’
`[Laughs]’
`All she wants to do is, you know, go clubs, and enjoy herself, and look after her daughter, and… and just have a good time. But then there was like a… I wanted to have a good time, like if my friends would call, I’d say `Oh, I’m going to the club’, and she didn’t like that. What she wanted me to do was stay home, and you know, look after her and her daughter, but I was too young, and… all I wanted to do was just… you know… get out of there and be with it… but…’
`So what happened…and how long did you… did you have a relationship?’
`Yeah, we had a relationship…’
`How long did it last?’
`About a year I think…’
`And then what happened?’
`We just drifted apart… just… broke up one night and… and drifted apart. I haven’t seen her for years you know…’
`So let’s take you back… you mentioned something earlier about where your brother, Roy…’
`Yeah…’
`…had his own…?’
`Oh yeah…’
`…fully sound system?’
`Sound system, that’s it, yeah… because…’
`Sound system… and you were playing with him?’
`Yeah, I used to help him and…’
`So tell me something more about that and how you got into it, and…?’
`Umm….’
`How much you enjoyed it, and the sort of music he played at the time?’
`Well… it’s like… it was like a little thing that everyone did in Kensal
Rise, you know… somebody start off collecting records, building speaker boxes and buying eighteen inch speakers to put in it, and…’
`What year…?’
`It was about…’
`Was that in the seventies or…?’
`Yeah, that’s… was… that’s like… mmm… about… ’75, ’76…’
`Ok…’
`…and round that time…’
`Ok… uh huh…’
`And then… we just… we used to… go to Dub Vend [ph] and have a go… buy records. We went to Rough Trading Label at Ladbroke Grove, go over and buy records, and then… like sometimes we would… all the people involved in the sound, would put money together to buy records and then we used to go to like… Stoke Newington set, or… or Tottenham or… maybe… there was a record shop in Shepherd’s Bush. We used to visit and buy records and… try to get in to sell some like… because we start…. We’re in a sound system… we trying to get it more cheaper, you know…’
`Mmm’
`Err… we…we was… we was a good set, we had a good selection of…’
`What was the name of the Sound?’
`It was called `Supreme A’…’
`Supreme?’
`Suprema A… [ph]’
`Ok…What sort of music did you play?’
`We played Reggae music and… soul, funk, because… a lot of us used to go to a… at the time we used to go to this club called `Crackers’, down the west end… it was a soul club, and they played strictly soul music… and… that’s where we got our soul influence from the music there and… George Power used to play. We… on… on the Reggae side, well, that was like… I didn’t… Roy didn’t go to rave clubs at the time I did, but he… he went to his… his own type of club you know, but then… I used to go to clubs like `Metro’, `Club Norwich’ in Tottenham, and… `Columbo’s’ down at Carnaby Street… where else? Smaller clubs in, I think Kilburn… they used to have a… a school in Kilburn where they used to have dances during the week. Like on Thursday, it used to be open on Thursday night, for one day out of the week… where else? `Nightingale’ in Wood… in Wood Green… `Red Lion’ in Leytonstone… ah well, I went… [laughs]…’
`So you went all over the place a bit?’
`All over the place, you know… ‘
`So what role did you play there, when…?’
`Well, we just went to listen… at the time, it’s not like now where… you get… if you want… to listen to Reggae means that you… you would have to travel, dare it, at that time, because now, you... all you have to do is put the radio on, tune into a good like radio station, you could be entertained…’
`Such as? Which radio station plays Reggae now?’
`[Pause] Beat… Beat FM… [pause]… Unique… Unique FM, and… oh, Choice… FM… and there’s another one… oh… what’s the name?…’
`Ok, we can come… we can come back to that…’
`Yeah…’
`So you say… and those radio stations are the stations of the nineties?’
`Of the nineties…’
`Who do you think will be the stations of the twenty first century?’
`[Laughs] I don’t know…’
`Laughs]’
`I… I don’t know…’
`Yeah…’
`No, I don’t know…’
`Mmm’
`Mmm’
`And what sort of music would you say… is it prominent music in the nineties for…black youngsters? Is it Reggae/soul, hip hop, what?’
`Well the… it’s like… if you ever… you know, I listen to all types of music…’
`Mmm’
`…and… Reggae’s my first love and so… it’s like a kind of mix of… Reggae and soul. I like… I love Reggae to the bone, but I love soul as well to the bone because I… I get a… I get a great deal of enjoyment by listening to it, or playing it, recording it…’
`Ok…’
`…putting it on tape to listen to, you know…’
`So in… in terms of the sound system, did you help to play the records, were you…?’
`Well, no… I… I should of, but I… what I used to do, I had to put a lot of money like for… records, from… the record shop that used to be in Kensal [ph] Rise… we used to go there with like thirty, forty pound that we all put together from work and buy… spend it all on records… with…’
`So your role was just to go along with Roy?’
`Yeah, just to go along, but…’
`And just listen, or… did you do some rapping?’
`Well I… I played some music, I played some music… I listened and played some music.’
`Did you do any rapping, you know, the…twice over…?’
`I… I’ve really tried, but I couldn’t… at the time… I don’t know, if I was maybe too young I didn’t… fully understand it…’
`Ok…’
`But I thought… if I can try and be a DJ you know, then… and then… taught DJ like how… yard DJ’s like Jamaican DJ’s…’
`Mmm’
`I says `yeah, I’d be somebody you know, there… oh look at the industry… oh yeah, there he goes…’, you know…’
`Ok… Let’s take you back… to your family…’
`Yeah…’
`[Talking in background] How many of your brothers and sisters do you… keep in touch with at the moment, and how many of them are still alive?’
`Well… I don’t see my sisters these… these days too much. I used to see Gemma a lot but then… I haven’t seen her for a… just… I… I you know, just didn’t write… [???]’
`Ok… so your sister is still around?’
`She’s still around…’
`Who else…?’
`My oldest brother, Garfield’s still around…’
`Uh huh…’
`My brother Roy is still around….’
`Your brother Roy is still around…uh huh…’
`And… me…’
`Ok…’
`Could we… could we take a break?’
`Yeah…’
`I just want to have a roll up, is that alright?’
`Yeah…’
`Ok… I’ll be back in a little while…’
`Wait…’
[After break]
`Ok, welcome back George…’
`Yeah…’
`Right, let us proceed with the interview and…’
`Yeah…’
`Before we had the break we were just about going back, just to get some clarification on your sister…’
`Yeah…’
`And…and brothers… [pause]. What I would like to find out is whether or not… did they visit you at all?’
`Well, my sister used to come and visit me like… once every six months, but… the thing is she was having children at the time and so… she couldn’t move around a lot. My brother… oldest brother, Garfield used to come and visit me, but he, just like my sister, just once in a while, you know…’
`Mmm’
`But when I do visit them they visit… they… they’re very friendly to me.’
`Ok, so you visit them sometimes?’
`Yeah…’
`Where does your sister live?’
`Kilburn. She used to live in Cricklewood, but now she lives in Kilburn…’
`And your brother?’
`My brother lives in… Neasden…’
`And they welcome you when you visit them?’
`Yeah, yeah…’
`Ok…and you feel comfortable when you’re there?’
`I feel comfortable when I’m there… just… sometimes I remember… you know, I’m on my own here, and times can be very difficult, the… it would be nice to have someone of your… like my own family, to talk to… it didn’t work out that way.’
`Mmm…’
`So I… I’ve just grown up to just accept it at the moment.’
`What about your mother and father, where are they now?’
`Well my mother and father are in Grenada… they left about… 1985, sold the house… took the furniture, and just moved over. They bought a house in Grenada, and… the both of them were out there, but then my… my dad died of a heart attack, about… [pause]… about a year and a half ago…’
`Mmm…’
`And… I’ve really wanted to be there with my mother, but it… I was, you know, locked up in here… so I wasn’t allowed to do that… but I do want to go to Grenada so I can… you know, say hello to my mum, see how she’s getting on. ‘Cause my mum used to come like every year, back to this country, so that she could like collect clothes… lots of lots of clothes and just sell it in the market in Grenada, so… she can make some money to live on.’
`Mmm’
`That’s about it really…’
`Mmm… So… how… how would it… does your… how has your father’s death affected you… the fact that you weren’t able to go there?’
`I was very hurt, because… I always said to myself, you know, `One day I’ll have the money and I’ll go to Grenada, to stay with… have my family actually in Grenada show me round Grenada’, you know… just open my eyes to see what is there, but… then I heard my dad died, and I was very hurt, ‘cause I loved my dad, he was good to me.’
`Mmm…’
`My par.. even though my parents, you know, beat me… you know, when I’m… was just behaving… I still would… you know… enjoyed their company, and to hear them talk to me, you know, makes me feel… you know… I’m alive, you know… but…’
`Do you feel loved? Did… do you feel that they loved you..?’
`I feel they did…’
`…when you were with them? And still do?’
`I think they did… yeah…’
`Uh huh… and you said Garfield will only visit you probably…’
`One… yeah… he only visits me…’
`Once in a while?’
`Once in a while, but then…’
`But you can visit him?’
`I can visit him… but it’s… it’s just recently this has happened… because, it’s like… the section I’m on… I had to get Home Office permission…’
`Which section is that? What section?’
`Thirty seven, forty one… I have to get Home Office permission to go anywhere in this country, and… so far… at first they allowed me two hours… right, to go to college… I used to go college, for one year, in Wembley, in Copeland School… where I was learning motor maintenance. Did that for a year, and then… just recently this is… is… it’s stopped.’
`Why did it stop?’
`Because the… the… the… the section that I was going to, was… it was two of them… one for ten weeks, and one for one year, so I went to one for one year… you know to learn as much as I can about car maintenance… how to like change the oil in a car or… change the back brakes or… change the… change… how to change a tyre… and how to change the brakes on… on the front wheel and on the back wheel. It was very interesting, I learnt a lot there.’
`Ok… just going back… what’s happened to Roy? You mentioned you can visit?’
`Roy… Roy he’s a… he’s a man that moves, you know… he’s married, he’s got two children, and… he works very hard, ‘cause… the last time I saw him he was… his… him and wife were just… you know, paying off the mortgage for the house, bringing up their children…’
`Uh huh…’
`He doesn’t go out you know… he… I must admit, he’s… he’s a bit ashamed of me, because of the way I am, you know… got a very gigantic stomach and… he feels like… I’m not his brother, but really I am his brother, but…’
`That’s a very interesting thing, for you to touch on, the way in which… he feels…’
`Yeah…’
`Probably embarrassed, about you?’
`He does, yeah…’
`How… have you tried to talk to him about the importance of… being able to… to cope with it and to recognise the fact that you’re still his brother?’
`Yeah… umm…’
`How have you dealt… have you talked to him about it?’
`I haven’t really talked to him about it…’
`Has he talked to you about…?’
`No…’
`But that’s the impression, is that what you…?’
`It’s like… that’s the impression I get because… [pause]. To hear it like… he’s had a few parties at his house, but he’s never invited me to any… if I go down, like the tallest one, the biggest stomach, you know… I don’t look right…’
`Mmm’
`…with his… intellectual friends, you know… you work hard and make loads of money and…’
`What does he do?’
`Well, he… he does… washing… washing… washing machine… repair…’
`Ok..’
`He repairs washing machines… drives lorries…’
`Mmm’
`So how do you cope with the fact that you feel that… he’s a bit embarrassed about the way you look?’
`I feel, I… even I’m embarrassed the way I look because I can remember the days when I used to look very, you know, slim… muscly… and I looked really good in clothes, but these days… oh, I must… I’ve still… got my standards, but it’s… it’s the size of my stomach, you know… it’s very big. It’s not naturally so, because… [pause]…’
`Ok, you’ve got another brother… did you say one of your brothers died?’
`Yeah, one of my brothers died… his name was Ron.’
`Ron?’
`Yeah…’
`Ok… he was youngest?’
`He was the youngest.’
`Ok, how old was he then?’
`Cor, let me think… I think twenty four, twenty five…’
`Really?’
`He was… he… he worked hard. He was doing… car body repair, and he worked on cars, repairing like dents in cars or… respraying cars, things like that.’
`Mmm’
`He had a good job, but…’
`Where did he live? Did he…?’
`Well…’
`He lived on his own or what?’
`He used to live in Stonebridge, in a flat that my younger brother, Roy, and his wife used to live in, ‘cause he was… he was having difficulties finding somewhere to stay, so my brother gave keys to the flat to Ron, so he could live there, and from there Roy and his wife would move into a house, and… you know, pay the mortgage.’
`Were you close to… to Roy?’
`I was… I was. I was living with them at one stage’
`Ok…’
`But then… it reached a point where… we really liked it there where we were staying, you know… but then the council found out and…’
`Ahh…’
`…then they started threatening us with letters, saying that you… we have to move out, and then… in that time I was still complaining about my flat in Kilburn, because the heat… what we did… what me, my brother and my dad, we decorated the front room and the bed… bedroom, expecting… for me to live there for a while, and it’s… maybe four, five years, and then… I got into trouble with the Law, because… at the time when I was living in Kilburn, I was on a benefit called supplementary benefit, where they pay you like £30 pound for one week, and £30 pound for the next week, and… I was having very… a lot of difficulties paying my bills, and… eventually I just got into trouble with the police and then I was sent to prison, on remand…’
`When was that?’
`Mmm… [pause]… ’87… I started to… yeah… in trouble with the Police…’
`And what… what happened… what sort of trouble?’
`Well… basically I… I couldn’t go to my brother for money ‘cause he didn’t have any… any of my brothers didn’t have any. My sister didn’t have any ‘cause she had about… what, three children… and a husband, and I couldn’t really go there so I tried to explain to social services, not… social security. I tried to explain to them that the money I’m getting is not enough, I can’t pay my bills, I can’t pay my electricity, can’t pay my gas, I can’t pay for a television licence. The only thing that money was good enough, was just to buy food… for maybe four days… that means meat, everything involved, and just stay at home, but… and my… my… the country I come from… you know… my friends always taught me, you know, `don’t stay in doors and waste your life away because you’ll never meet a girlfriend that way’, and… they’d sort of always say `go out… just go out, at least once for the week… enjoy yourself, see if you can meet a young girl, or… someone… a girl who likes you… you know, try to… go forward in the future with you’, but… I couldn’t do that really because… with thirty pound, you… you… at the time, food wasn’t too expensive, but it was starting to get expensive, so I found a lot of difficulties and then… argued with social security over money and then they say, `oh you’re threaten… you’re behaviour is very threatening’, and… [pause]… you know, they… they, basically, when I complained, they `phoned the Police, the Police would arrest me, then from there they used to take me to Shenley, so…’
`Yeah…before we get to… I’ll come back to Shenley, but you said you were taken to prison?’
`Yeah, I was taken to prison’
`What were you taken to prison for?’
`Oh, they put me on remand in Brixton prison…’
`Remand…’
`Because they said I was a danger to myself and a danger to the public.’
`And then after you left… how long did you stay in Brixton for?’
`Well… I stayed in Brixton for about four months…’
`Uh huh…’
`And then I went to Crown Court. I think… I went to Crown Court but then I couldn’t have a good solicitor, because the solicitor card I had in my wallet, the Police ripped them up, threw them in the bin, so it’s like me reaching to the Court, and I’m thinking, `I don’t want no… what do you call them… Duty Solicitor’, because Duty Solicitors are hopeless… I’d rather have a solicitor that I can trust, and I couldn’t even ring them up because the Police tore up my… solicitor’s card that I had in my wallet, just in case… if I do fall in trouble with the police I can get this… solicitor I can trust, to help me…’
`Mmm’
`But what happened was… I went into the Court Room… the Duty Solicitor will say,
`Oh, don’t say anything’, he’ll say everything for me. So I went into the Court and I sat down and he says `Sshh, be quiet, be quiet… don’t… don’t shout like that’, you know, and the next thing I know, they say, `Oh…’, the Judge was saying well, `I’m going to put you into a mental hospital, for two years’, then after that, I can go back home, back to the community, so... this happened a few times when I… you know, when I’d got no food at home so I… I would go to Chinese restaurants and just eat food and try to run away, and then get kept… there’s a lot involved, but at the time you see, you see it’s like… I’ve tried to get work. I went to Shepherd’s Bush, working estate… nobody want me. I went to Alperton [ph] working estate, nobody wants me. I went to… Colindale, tried to get my old job back… they didn’t want me so, it was very difficult for me, and I wasn’t prepared to just you know, slide there and just drop off dead, and they laugh at me and say, `ah, you silly guy, you should have just kept going’, you know, but…’
`So they sent you off to… to Shenley?’
`Yeah… yeah they take me… take me to Shenley.’
`Was that your first experience of mental health?’
`Yeah… that’s my first experience of mental health. Through stealing food… they put me into Shenley, and then…’
`So what year you went to Shenley?’
`Oh, what year?’
`Was that 1987 as well?’
`Yeah, I think it could be…’
`’Cause you said you stayed in Brixton for about four months?’
`Yeah… yeah…’
`In 1987?’
`Yeah… what I’ve done is quite a bit from that time you know… because… it’s just that… I think they money’s not enough to live on. I mean you’ve got to pay your own gas. If you’re… if you’re using gas, and electricity, it’s not normally, oh… £30 pound you’re going to be paying, you’re paying like in hundreds… because… I couldn’t believe that it was so expensive you know, because I used to like… keep the lights off… use the cooker only for cooking…’
`So you tried?’
`I tried… but…’
`..to economise…’
`I couldn’t do it.’
`Did you get any support from your family…?’
`No… no, they were…’
`Did you go to them and say `Look, this is the situation… what have you…?’’
`Well I did get some support from my brother, from Roy. He used to, like give me the odd £5 pound when I needed it, or a tenner… that’s if he can afford it though…’
`Mmm’
`But then… I couldn’t… I couldn’t really… I didn’t want to put, you know, my troubles onto him, because he’s got more they used to pay. He’s got children’s clothes to buy, he’s got deeds and things to do, you know… and…’
`So where were you living at the time? Were you living on your own… when you…?’
`I was living on my in Kilburn [both talking together].’
`When you went… ok…’
`In Malvern Road…’
`I don’t know the area very well…’
`Yeah, it’s…’
`In a…?’
`…Kilburn…’
`Mmm’
`I was living there on my own and… things was alright, but then when the bills came, that’s when the shock hit you, you know…’
`And then you…’
`You’re thinking `Oh my God… £145 pound… how am I going to pay a £145 pound from £30 pound… and all I do with that £30 pound is buy food to eat for the week.’
`Mmm’
`So you never thought of going to seek advice say from… Citizen Advice Bureau, you know… them welfare places?’
`I did but… I couldn’t… I didn’t… I didn’t understand mainly what they were talking about…’
`[Inaudible]’
`And I can…I… I just couldn’t understand.’
`Ok, so you says… ok… stop… [whispers]’
`Right…’
[End of DVC Pro tape 1]
[Start of DVC Pro tape 2 – VHS tape 1 continues]
`Ok George, let’s continue’
`Yeah…’
`We were talking about… your experience of having financial problems because of the very little money…’
`Yeah…’
`…you were given…? And how… because of that, it got you into problems…’
`Yeah…’
`And you were sent to Brixton prison… stayed there for about four months…’
`Yeah…’
`…and then was transferred to Shenley?’
`That’s right.’
`Did… what reasons did they give you when you were sent to Shenley?’
`They said that I was a schizophrenic, but I think what was happening in prison was that they… they were giving me medication, saying that it was meant to… [pause]’
`Carry on…’
`They were giving me medication saying that was meant to help my health, and make me think more clearly… but what it really did was put me in pain, causing me to… scream… really, outrageous, knowing that I couldn’t stop myself, and then once the doctor in prison would say `Oh, you’re mad’, they get a second doctor to come and see you, to back him up… and then they both say that you’re against them [???]… the next thing you know you’re locked in… in Shenley.’
`So what year did you come to Shenley?’
`Ooh, I think I came to Shenley about…’
`You went to Shenley…’
`’88…’
`Ok. When you… before you were went to… before you were sent…’
`Yeah…’
`…to Shenley, before you were admitted to Shenley…’
`Yeah…’
`Was there any consultation, any discussion, with any members of your family?’
`No…’
`So what, weren’t they aware as to what was happening?’
`They were aware… [inaudible]… is that after six…I would be locked up in Shenley for about six months, then they would give me a chance to leave the ward… or… I could walk in the grounds in Shenley, but I couldn’t go into London, and… [pause]… I had to stay here… on this ward, called Villa 1A.’
`Villa 1A… yeah… what sort of a ward was it like?’
`Oh, it was a typical hospital place. They had dormitories where like, four people would sleep in the same room…’f
`Mmm’
`Umm… you have like… art in the morning…’
`Mmm’
`Umm… physical exercise… after lunch, things like that… just to give you something to do during the day.’
`So did you share a… a room with other people?’
`Yeah, I shared a room with four… four… three other men…’
`Uh huh. What were they like?’
`Umm…’
`And what were your first impressions when you came?’
`My first impressions were that…’
`Going there?’
`…I thought `this place looks scary’, you know, in the night times… I heard about shadows all over the place and… I looked it, I thought, `Oh my God, what am I doing here you know? Why did I do that? And then I… I started to feel bad [???], I says `it’s not me’, it’s the… it’s the government, because… I knew I could… I broke the law, but then I thought I’d be going to prison, and then… my experience of Brixton is… they used to force drugs down you, force injections in your bum, give you… things… drinks that taste so horrible… disgusting… you used to take it, and used to go crazy in your room, screaming and shouting and… all the officers used to do… just look in and say `Are you alright Joseph?’, and you say, `Oh, I’m alright’, and… that was it. But…’
`You seemed… you seem to be saying that you wasn’t aware as to what was…’
`No, I wasn’t…’
`…what drugs were being given to you?’
`I wasn’t… I wasn’t…’
`In prison…?’
`No one told me what they were giving me. All they said was that, `These drugs are here to help you… to… you know, not getting violent, think more better, you know…’. What I found that is always the drugs was there… to make you totally sick. Make you crazy out your head, you know… and then they say `It’s your responsibility but how can it be if you’re… if you’re taking something that… you know… you didn’t agree to, they say `You’ve got to take it’, and you take it and you find that you’re… you’re thinking is… very strange, you know, one minute you’re thinking, `Oh, I’m longing to leave this place…’, the next minute you’re thinking `Oh, who’s that crazy guy in there? Or what’s this crazy thought I’m having in my head?’ You know…’
`Were you aware that there were the side effects of the drugs?’
`I didn’t know… at the time it was my first time with drugs like that. I mean after… like four months, then I realised… there must be side effects because I was acting really very strange, you know…’
`So instead of making you better, it…’
`It made me…’
`It made you worse?’
`It made me worse…’
`Was that the…similar experiences of other people… there?’
`Yeah… and because… when was it? About a month ago… I went to… it was to… there’s some people called `BUG’…’
`Yes, I know BUG’
`…who arrange meetings… ‘
`Say what BUG is?’
`Well you’ve got a… a USER…’
`It’s called Brent USER’s Group…’
`Yeah, that’s right, so… like… people like me who have been in a mental… situation… could go somewhere, have something nice to eat… the same kind of company, you know…’
`Uh huh…’
`And just… you know… people would be watching something, or planning to go for a holiday, or planning to visit other people who have been in mental hospitals, all over like… other parts of London.’
`Mmm… yeah… so you… I was asking you, are you aware that other people were… were experiencing the same things as you? [both talking together].’
`I wasn’t aware of it… I wasn’t aware. All I know… I thought everything was happening to me. I thought, if I gave up, because what… was happening to me… I said, I thought to myself, `I’m going to be… a loser, you know…’. I know… people say, oh, they remember me, but then after a few years, you know… they just… forget me completely, and they’re well… while I’m lying in the ground thinking `Oh, sleep…’, I don’t know… well I’m not really sure… but I… I could have died. But instead of dying, I said `I’ll keep fighting’… and since then, still fighting.’
`[Pause]. I just want to take you back a little, to the Brixton experience…’
`Yeah…’
`Were you on the medical…wing of the… the prison?’
`I was… I was the medical wing of the prison.’
`And how did you cope, did you make friends there?’
`I talked to people, yeah… I made friends… a few got… at the time, I couldn’t afford my own roll ups, so I used to go and ask them for a cigarette and… sometimes they would give me… I don’t know how you meet some… I… a… someone who’s in the same position as me, but he was better off because he had regular tobacco sent to him from like his girlfriend, or his parents, used to bring it for him. ‘Cause when I was in prison, that’s the days when… parents or friends could bring… like a can of beer, or… food… bring it to the prison, and give it to, like… the… their… the prisoner. But then… when was it about? About two years after that they made a decision where, because of… the IRA…’
`The bombing?’
`You know IRA bombing was… IRA terrorists were sent to… a special prison…’
`Mmm’
`Well they found that one of the prisoners had a gun…’
`Ok…’
`And then from there, the rule went… all across the country that no one is allowed to bring food and give it to a prisoner, or drinks… they’re not allowed that any more.’
`Ok… so while you were in Brixton, being given the medication that was making you more crazy…?’
`Yeah…’
`That’s what you are saying?’
`That’s it, yeah… yeah…’
`That’s what you’re saying… were there other black… patients there, black prisoners?’
`There was… there was other black prisoners there…’
`Uh huh… and… and did you talk about what was happening… how… how did you cope?’
`Well…’
`That’s… that’s what I’m trying to get at?’
`At the time… the only time that you can talk to another prisoner, is on the parade ground, where you go walking round in a circle… you know, for exercise, for about half an hour… then you come inside, then you will have like dinner… no, you have lunch… then you… we got sent back into our cell, and you spent the rest of the time in the cell, ‘till about… five… about five… then you come out… what they call it, slop out… that means you clean the bucket that you use for your waste, and you clean your cell, and then you… just general things like that you know…’
`So what kept you going? What…?’
`What kept me going?’
`Whilst you… whilst you were there for the four months?’
`I said…’
`Before you were sent to…’ [???]
`I’m not going to give into people, ‘cause I know they were doing terrible things to me, but I said… the only way they’re going to get rid of me, is just… they’re going to have to make it obvious, because I’m not going to say all the things what was happening to me, I’m going to see it… I’m not scared of things like that, you know…’
`Mmm’
`’Cause on… to be honest… I used to feel… sting you [???], on my skin, and I thought… [inaudible…] and a twitch in the feet [???], I didn’t take no drugs, I don’t usually take drugs…’
`Mmm’
`Except it…if it’s the medicine from the doctor… I had stinging all over… all over me, you know… I knew they were trying to force me to do… to commit suicide… but… I wasn’t prepared for that because I loved life… I loved life… I…’
`How do you know they were trying to make you commit suicide?’
`Because of the stinging on my body… I… the only time that happened was when I took the drugs, from… from the officer, so that I thought, that must be the cause, because… I refused it a few times, and then I was feeling better, but then… but… one day later then, eight officers would… burst into my room… hold me down on the bed, pull my trousers back, and give me injection in bum… in the bum. I thought to myself, `This is terrible, all I did is steal food… [laughs] you know… and they treat me like this’. I had to live with it.’
`Was it… do you think other prisoners there had similar experiences?’
`I think so… the…’
`Did you talk about it?’
`We didn’t really talk… but we kind of had understanding, you know, but…’
`Mmm’
`In prisons I… when in the cell, you’re individual. When you’re… when you’re allowed… like, when you come out the cell and you like talk to other prisoners, over the things what’s happening to you… we talk about it, but we wasn’t in a position to do anything about it, because we were… outnumbered by the officers, so… basically we had to go through it…’
`Mmm’
`…and one prisoner said to me, he said, `Don’t give up… don’t be giving up, just keep going to the very end…’, and… [phone ringing in background].’
`So were you relieved, when you left Brixton prison?’
`I was, because I couldn’t smoke properly… [laughs].’
`You couldn’t…?’
`I couldn’t smoke cigarettes you know… in Brixton…’
`Mmm’
`So…’
`Ok, so you… let’s move on… where you said… then you were sent to Shenley, under section…?’
`Under section…’
`Section what?’
`It was section three… the first time I went was section three…’
`Ok…[pause]… yes…?’
`Yeah…’
`And you were then sent to Villa ward?’
`Yeah, Villa 1A, that’s the first ward I was in…’
`Villa 1A…ok… and you said you shared a room with three other people?’
`Yeah…’
`Ok… were they black or was it… black and white?’
`It was mixed… black and white.’
`How did you all get on, culturally speaking?’
`We got on… because like we all… was in the kind of same situation… and… there were… I know, like when I first went there was a… a young English guy, white guy… and like… he was… he was… ok, but until when they started giving him the drugs, it made him crazy, so… one day he ran away, and then… the next thing I heard he came back with both of his legs broken. He jumped down a stairwell thinking he can get away from them… well he was the type of person, he’d go into hotels, like to steal money, things like that… and try to escape from the Police, so he jumped over the… over the… the stair guard… and broke both of his legs. I thought, he’s… you know… what was that for? Just for a few pennies you know… but… I… I felt sorry for him because, he said to me… all evening there was an operation… on his knees, so that he can walk properly, but… up to this day I haven’t seen him for a long time, and… I can always remember, when he was in the room, you know, you could never forget it because he couldn’t walk… so he.. when he passed down… faeces? He would do it in his bed…’
`Faeces…’
`Faeces… he would do it in his bed, and used to have to get up for all that, because it was that strong… it was a very strong odour, and like… I felt sorry for him.’
`Mmm. So what sort of nurses… did you have at Shenley, when you went to Villa?’
`Well it was a mix… it was a mixture, whereas… I mean one or two of them were friendly to you you know, you can have a good conversation, but then… you would get these kind of other nurses who… who seemed to walk with a chip on their shoulder, you know… always trying to push you into a fight, knowing that as soon as you start thumping them… the other… the other nurses would hear their own… rush to the ward and hold you down, and give you an injection.’
`Has it ever happened to you there?’
`It’s happened to me, because when I first went there, I couldn’t believe the amount of things they were doing to me… so I said `I’m going to fight for my freedom’… tried to fight, the next thing I know, I’m held down… forced injections, forced medicine… eventually I just ended up taking it.’
`You surrendered?’
`I had to surrender because I couldn’t stand being hold down on the floor, being choked… you know… you live… the air that you breathe and slowly you’re being squeezed out of it… so…’
`It’s interesting you use the words, `fighting for my freedom’.’
`Yeah…’
`Why did you choose those words?’
`Well I choose the words because…’
`’Cause it has a lot of meaning, the words…’
`It has a lot of meaning because, I knew… I knew what offense I committed, but I didn’t think it was a murder offense. I… I’ve always been like a… like a free spirit, I… you know, go wherever… where the action is, so I can meet girls… [pause]. While I was in that place, I was locked up, kept… basically on the ward, and…’
`Mmm…’
`Phew… it was a very frightening experience, but…’
`Mmm’
`I love freedom, you know…?’
`Ok, so they are freedom things?’
`Yeah, it was with me…’
`Uh huh…’
`And I kept it up all the time… you know… to the… to be free of… ‘
`To be free…’
`…of the pressure that I’d been put under.’
`What sort of medication were you on?’
`Phoo… [ph] umm…’
`...during that time? You left Brixton…’
`Yeah…’
`…under Section Three…’
`Yeah…’
`…sent to Shenley, at which you’re diagnosed as a… schizophrenia?’
`Schizophrenia, that’s what they said…’
`What medication were given? Were you aware as to what medication was given?’
`I can remember getting Largactyl [ph]… that was like a… it was a… you get a… one of these kind of little cups there with… millimetres written on it…’
`Uh huh…’
`And like I used to get, what… every day… every noon… every six o’clock I used to get… Largactil…’
`Three times a day?’
`Three times a day, Largactyl [ph]. Some days I was alright, some days I was crazy… there was no one I could turn to there because it… the staff was on the side of the doctor. You would go to the doctor, you’d express to the doctor, `This is making me feel very strange… I’m pacing up and down the corridors… I have no self control…’, he says, `Oh… oh, I’ll give you some… Procyclidine [ph] for it… for the side effects.’ Take Procyclidine and it makes it even worse, so… you… over the years, you just learn… you know… what kind of medication is good for you and which ones are not. You know, you will hear someone talking `I was on that medication’, then you would look and see how he would react to it, then you would think `Oh, well, he seems to be ok’, well I will suggest to the doctor, that I get on to that one, to see what it does for me.’
`So that was one of…uh huh… one of the ways in which you coped?’
`That’s one of the ways I coped.’
`Mmm. How long did you stay in the Villa for?’
`Ooh… Villa ward… I did a lot of time in Villa ward…’
`Was it the only ward you stayed in?’
`No, no no… that’s… I’ve been on Villa 1A…’
`Uh huh…’
`About three weeks, and then… what’s it called… MA1…’
`And M1…’
`I did a lot of time in… in Villa Four isn’t that right…?’
`Yeah…’
`You… what they usually do, like if I come from prison, they take me straight to Villa Four, then I would stay in Villa Four like… maybe a year, maybe nine, eight months… and then from there they would move me… to one of the General Wards, like Villa 1A or Villa 1B, or Villa 1C, they would put me in one of those wards, and then I would stay there… whereas… all the time, they’re… they’re watching me… to see how I would react, and then… I just did whatever they said just to get out, you know… and…’
`So whilst you were in Shenley have you ever had the opportunity to come out into the…your home?’
`I have… I have, but that’s… that’s about… about five… no about… seven years ago. I went… I was locked up in there for some reason or another and then… I spent a year, one year there, then I went to Haltsmore [ph], with… with friends… [???]. Another year... then they said, `Oh…’, well… I heard other people talking what they were doing, so I spoke to the doctor about it yeah, and he said, `Oh’, let’s see what you can do and then…’, they put me on to a Social Worker, that worked in the grounds of the hospital, and then just… she suggested that I could go back to visit my brother, Garfield, he used to live in Chalking Estate [ph]… I can go and see him like, for… for the day… I can leave at… ten o’clock, go there, stay until about… nine o’clock in the night… take the… train, to Radlett [ph], then from Radlett I can take a minicab to the hospital, ‘cause I’m not walking down that… that dark country road all by my own… I was too frightened… [laughs].’
`Were you able to travel by yourself…?’
`I was…’
`…without anyone?’
`…after… after a while. The usual thing they did, is they lock you away from everybody, work on your mind and then… once they think they’ve got you, they say `Oh, you can go out into the community.’’
`Why do… why… why do you think that they usually work on your mind? What do you think…’
`Because…’
`…you’re hoping to achieve?’
`[Pause]. I don’t understand… all I know… is that I’ve been through some terrible things in Shenley… and…’
`Like what?’
`…and… I’ve been… I’ve been held down by the… by the… by the nurses, for about… four times… forced the medication. I’ve had myself threat… I’ve been threatened, by nurses. If I’m not… if I refuse the medication, they will force it down my throat, and they did…’
`Mmm’
`And then what they… what was the most famous move is when… you reach a point where you say `Oh I’m feeling terrible… I don’t like what’s happening to me, I want to do something about it’, you try to do something about it and you’re out numbered, because you’re just one person, against the whole hospital…’
`When you say `to do something about it’, like what?’
`Like you fight… you know, you say.. `I know… I don’t think it’s right… I know… I’m a very sensible person. I went to school in this country… so I know I’m a sensible person, and then they will say, `Oh… you’re…’, the doctor will say, `Oh, no… you’re paranoid schizophrenic, you’re…’ you know…?’
`Mmm’
`Force you to try and believe that, when… when you look at the offense… it’s not a paranoid offense to steal food… it’s because you’re hungry you steal food… and… say if you’re like… what I would called paranoid… is like… walking up to somebody in the street, talking nonsense… frightening people that… like that, but… I’ve never done that. I’ve done it in Social Security when I’ve tried to explain to them, I haven’t got enough money to pay for my bills…I can’t afford a telephone, I can’t afford a television licence…’
`Mmm’
`And then I would get upset trying to explain to them…’
`Mmm’
`And they’ll say `That is all you’re entitled to…’, but the trick is… when you hear other people… how much other people’s getting, then you know you’re on the bottom of the scale.’
`Mmm’
`And that’s where you’re always going to be… I mean, so far… since I’ve been to college to learn about car maintenance, I stand a chance.’
`Mmm’
`I stand a chance, ‘cause I remember… I… I got books to read… so I know… when I’m really confident, I’ll maybe open my own business, or go to college to learn some more…’
`So you seem to still have some sort of ambition…’
`Yeah, I’ve still got ambition…’
`…to better yourself?’
`To better myself, yeah…’
`Let’s… still on Shenley…’
`Yeah…’
`When did you leave Shenley you said?’
`Cor… [ph]… I can’t remember when they built this building… I think it was the ‘90’s, I’m not sure, but what… what I… what happened… I got into… an argument with Social Security… over money… because what would happen is that I would go there like… nine o’clock in the morning, with all the information they need, to give me a crisis loan, and like they would keep me in there… they’d say, `Oh… we’ll see you… like in an hour’s time’…’
`Mmm’
`…but really, you was like… forced… you’ve got no food in your stomach, you’ve got nowhere to get money from. You don’t want to end up stealing, so you’re going to try to explain to Social Security… to get you to… round to them… but they say, `No…’. They have the last word. They say `No’. Then you’re left in the position where you have to go home and starve, or steal from the shops, or… or see if you’re family can help you…’
`Mmm’
`But they’ve got loads of… they tell me they’ve got loads of problems, so I just don’t push it with them, I just let them get on with their lives.’
`So over all, how long did you stay in Shenley for… over all?’
`Over all…’
`From the time you left Brixton prison, sent to Shend… how…?’
`Oh that’s… oh that’s…’
`How many years would you say?’
`I did… that time, it was… because I was a beginner, I spent about six months there…’
`In total?’
`No… in total…’
`In total, that’s what I’m saying’
`Oh, oh, sorry… sorry…’
`Over all how long did you stay there for?’
`Umm… [pause]… about eight years…’
`Eight years?’
`Off and on…’
`Off and on? [pause]… Uh huh… so… give me a picture of what Shenley as a whole was like?’
`Umm…’
`The sort of social activities you had there… the kind of friends…?’
`Well, we used to…’
`What kind of food you were eating and… had to eat and all that?’
`Oh… yeah… well… breakfast in Shenley is like… baked beans, one sausage… bread and hot… something hot to drink, and a… a small bowl of cereal, and like the next day you might have a boiled egg… as… as much bread as you want, and then… a small bowl of cereal… ‘cause you would have something in the morning… we’d have something at twelve o’clock…’
`What sort of lunch did you have there? What kind of food?’
`Oh… lunch…’
`And is it the sort of food that…was suitable to you?’
`What as a… oh… oh… [pause]… fish… fish in Parsley… Parsley sauce…’
`[Inaudible]’
`Boiled potatoes, peas or carrots… I can’t remember really… it’s… it’s a long while…’
`It’s a long while. Were there many black patients there? [Pause] At the time when you were there?’
`When I was there, there was this… maybe… three…’
`Ok…’
`On the same ward as me… but then people used to come in and go out…’
`Ok…So it was like a Day visit… sort of thing?’
`Yeah…
`Mmm. What sort of social activities did you… did they have there?’
`Well, there was a… there was a building called… oh, God I can never remember it… League of Friends…’
`Ok…’
`It was a building where you could go in to get a… cup of tea for ten pence, or… you can always buy like the odd one or two cigarettes for like… ten pence… each. It was like a social place, ‘cause.. you just… you go there, you have something to drink… hot… [both talking together]…’
`Was that the café?’
`It’s a… it’s…’
`Is that… is that the one they called Alpha Club?’
`Alpha Club, yeah, that’s the one…’
`Café?’
`Alpha Club…’
`Ok..’
`Alpha Club. That was like a café…’
`Uh huh…’
`But then that was just like a meeting place where people you know, if you want to sit there and eat, or… you talk to other hospital patients… about their… you… yours and… or their experience, things like that… it’s…’
`Did you find that useful, talking about… your… sharing your experiences with others? All in the same position?’
`Well, the people in the same position, it was like… they were in the same position, like they were kept in the ward… and like once, the doctor thought that… you was normal enough to go into the… walk in the gardens or go to Alpha Club, then he would let you go.’
`Mmm. Did you do any work there?’
`Yeah… I did… I worked…’
`What did you do?’
`I worked in a… in this building where… you know… gas… gas… refill cans? Where they have the white plastic and the…and different valves for different lighters…’
`Uh huh…’
`Well I used to put the different valves in, and the two flints as well… I used to do that. I used to do that for about… I did that for about six months, but you worked from Monday to Friday… at the end of the week you had… you got about seven pound.’
`What time did you have to start?’
`You start nine o’clock in the morning, ‘till about half three, four o’clock…’
`Uh huh, and did you enjoy it?’
`Yeah, it was alright you know…’
`Mmm’
`There’s old people to take the mickey out of… [laughs]… to give you a joke…’
`Mmm. I hear you like dancing and singing and all that…’
`Ah…’
`Did you do any of that at Shenley?’
`No, I did… I was… I was in this band called `Brimstone’ [ph], in Ladbroke Grove where I have rehearsed, in a place called Carnic Arts [???]… the… with the members of the band and then… for about a year… we learned… what was it? Eleven songs, music… then we went onto the road. That’s like playing in clubs, at the Hundred Club in the West End…’
`Mmm’
`…or… or… clubs in Dalston…’
`Uh huh… you’re going back before… you’re talking about before…?’
`That’s before… I got into…’ [both talking together].
`…you went to Shenley…’
`Before I went to Shenley…’
`Ok… which… which to some extent we’ve already covered…’
`Yeah…’
`I just wanted to know what sort of activities or sort of socials did you get involved with…?’
`In Shenley?’
`In Shenley…’
`Well what I did…’
`Did you go dancing or what did you do?’
`No I wasn’t really dancing, I just went… like when we had the parties, like the Christmas party… or… when those big javelins were… ever coming to sing… George… Hall…?’
`Uh huh…’
`In Shenley, we… we would sit there…’
`King George?’
`King… that’s it… King George the… or the fifth…’
`The fifth? Yeah…’
`…in Shenley, well then… they usually… like you… a small trifle… roast chicken leg… salad, and…’
`Mmm’
`…small, little sandwiches… that was… that was alright, ‘cause you was… you… you weren’t under pressure, you just… if you want to dance, you can dance, and if you want to sit down, you can sit down…’
`Ok… right… let’s leave it there for the time being…’
`Yeah…’
`And we’ll come back… continue… after lunch.’
`Yeah… has everything been ok?’
`Yes very good…’
[Break]
[Camera: `Ok, we’re running…’].
[Pause]
`Ok, so welcome back, George…’
`Thanks Pauline…’
`It’s [inaudible] [laughs]… Did you have a good lunch?’
`I did, I had cereal… I’m trying to lose weight off my stomach…’
`Ok…’
`It’s taking me a long time.’
`Talking about losing weight, are you on a diet? Have you seen a Nutritionist?’
`I… I was on a diet, but I didn’t see any difference so I stopped it.’
`Mmm’
`But so far, I’ve collected from the newspaper, ideas of… slimming tablets and herbal… herbal remedies…’
`Uh huh…’
`…to help you lose weight.’
`Uh huh…’
`But I won’t be going through with it, until… until I leave the hospital.’
`Mmm… ok. When are you hoping to leave the hospital?’
`September…’
`Uh huh…’
`We’re supposed to be… all of us are supposed to be moving onto a group home… in…’
`Ok…’
`Craven Park…’
`Ok… before lunch, as you know, we… we reached as far as Shenley…’
`Yeah…’
`And that you spent about seven, eight years there…’
`Yeah…’
`When did you come to Park Royal Centre for Mental Health?’
`Oh, that’s a long time ago. All I remember, is that I was in Shenley and it was a big thing that we’re all moving to a new place in Park Royal.’
`Uh huh…’
`I’m not sure what year, it could be ’92 or ’93, I’m not sure… but…’
`So between ’92 and ’93?’
`Yeah… but I’m not… I could be wrong… it could be the wrong date.’
`Uh huh…’
`But… what I remember is that I was in Shenley and everybody was talking `We’re moving to a new place… in Park Royal’…’
`Uh huh…’
`And then… one day we all went… to Park Royal, to see what it was like…’
`Uh huh…’
`And it seemed very nice… and then… once we all moved in and everybody was settled, it was alright, but… some of the patients, you know, they weren’t that well… and like, they have got a… everyone who smoked, was to throw the dog end… throw the… the end of the cigarette on the floor…’
`Ok…’
`…and stepping on it and… kind of brought the place down…’
`Uh huh…’
`…made it look more run down… but I must admit, the hospital has kept up a… a good standard, because, once it did reach… a terrible standard… then they would… get the decorators in, change the carpet, paint… the walls… [scream in background]… a nice colour again… so it does look respectable…’
`Mmm’
`Get even new furniture as well…’
`Ok… so when you were transferred from… Shenley to Park Royal…Centre for Mental Health…’
`Yeah…’
`Which ward did…were you allocated to?’
`Willow ward.’
`Willow ward… and what sort of a ward was it?’
`Well… it was meant to be a rehabilitation ward, but what I find… it was more like a ward where the staff is always watching you, and… we did things in the day time like… like… what do you call them? [Pause] Groups where we would read the newspaper, and we’d talk about what we feel about some of the situations in the newspaper, maybe it could be war… [screaming in background]… it could be… government stories… and talk about it… so they get a general idea of what we think of the papers…’
`Uh huh…’
`Umm… [Pause] [Voices in background].’
`Ok…’
`Sometimes we’d go out during the week…’
`Uh huh…’
`Like trips to… museums… and… visiting country houses, just to see which the ground is like and…’
`Uh huh…’
`See the building [voices still in background].’
`Mmm…What sort of place is Park Royal, where… you know, where we are?’
`Well Park Royal… this is… this is… the Centre for Mental Health…’
`Yes…’
`That means like… there’s no more places like Shenley. If you do fall mentally un-ill then you would come to here…’
`Ok…’
`Under… lower section wards…’
`Ok…’
`But Willow, and Hawthorn, is for the more than… well… more… higher section.’
`Ok…in other words… where… patients need more care…?’
`More care, yeah…’
`Yeah… ok… so, give me… a bigger picture of what Willow ward was like. What sort of medication? What time you had to get up? What age… what were the nurses like?’
`Yeah…’
`Were they caring, whatever…?’
`Well we had to be up by eight o’clock in the morning [screaming in background]… [pause]. I can’t remember the medicine that I… I was…’
`Ok…’
`…taking before…’
`Mmm… how long were you on Willow ward for?’ [screaming in background]
`I… I… well this time I was on Willow ward for eight months… then… I heard through other people talking… like the staff talking to themselves, that they were going to open a new unit called Juniper Lodge… so, I talked to the doctor about it and he says, `Yes, you can come to Juniper Road… and then you go back into the community.’’
`Ok…’
`If I didn’t go through those lines then I would still be on Willow ward.’
`You seem, from what you’ve said earlier… that you’ve got your ears to the ground and to find out what’s going down… so that…?’
`I’m always ear to the ground…[???] [Laughs].’
`So that you can… why is that?’
`It’s just a habit of mine. Umm…’
`Is it a way of coping?’
`Yeah, I think so, because…’
`[Both talking together] Carry on…’
`It’s like… knowing where you are, and knowing what to be aware of. When you first come in, like Willow ward this is… but once you’ve been in the system for a while, you get very aware…’
`Mmm… how… how does that awareness help you to cope?’
`It gives me strength. In the… in the negative side though, I can see who’s negative, then I will say `Oh, well I’ll keep away from them.’ But at the positive side, who… who is more… who would like to know… who you are… and then you would like to know who they are… long… along as it… ooh… I can’t… there’s got to be something, you know…’
`Mmm’
`I’m not sure… [screaming in background]… I’m…’
`Take your time…’
`[Pause]… no, I can’t re… [ph]… my head’s blocked.’
`Ok…let me help you out a bit, by…just reminding you of what… what you said earlier in the sense that… in order for you to get your medication changed, ie. Largactyl [ph]…’
`Yeah…’
`You got information from other patients… as to the…’
`Yeah…’
`…new type of drugs, that they were on…’
`Yeah… yeah…’
`And you used that…’
`To… to get what…’
`To get… get what you want…’
`Yeah…’
`…get your medication changed…’
`Yeah…’
`And you seem to be doing the same thing here, by keeping your ears to the ground, knowing that this new ward was opening…’
`Yeah…’
`And you sought information… in order for you to… to be moved?’
`Yeah, that’s right…’
`From the main wards…’
`Yeah… I mean… if it was left to the doctor, I… maybe I would never hear about it, but once you hear those guys talking…’
`Uh huh…’
`You think to yourself, `Hmm… that might be a good thing’… ‘cause the medication [screaming/banging in background] I’m on now, is making me feel terrible…’
`Uh huh…’
`So… I tried a new medication… I’m on a new medication called `Clozapin.’
`Ok…’
`And I’ve been on it about… about seven months...’
`Mmm’
`And it’s alright… it’s… you know…’
`You feel alright on that…?’
`It makes me feel alright…’
`Uh huh… so when did you come to Juniper… Lodge?’
`I came to Juniper Lodge about a year ago…’
`Uh huh…’
`Really we should have been spending only six months here, but… there was no other accommodation and arrangements for… for the hostel for all of us, wasn’t made, but what I’ve heard is that they’re… hoping to put [screaming in background]… us in a place in Craven Park in Harlesden [ph]… so… we…’
`What sort of a place is Craven Park?’
`It’s a house…’
`It’s a house?’
`It’s a house with… six bedrooms. There’s meant to be a member of staff that’s there…’
`So it’s a group house?’
`It’s like a group house…’
`Uh huh…’
`But… all of us here are still waiting to see, and find out how we’re going to work it… ‘cause we’re here in Juniper Lodge and… there’s nurses… they’re so like… if you’ve got difficulties like… there’s no milk in the fridge… you just say to the Staff Nurse, `There’s no milk in the fridge’, there’s… then one of us is… nominated to go to the shop like to buy a bread… bananas, apples, whatever… we need… then we can get it.’
`Mmm’
`But I… I don’t… I’m not sure how the arrangements are going to go in… Craven Park. We’ve still yet to find out.’
`Ok…’
`If it’s going to be like here…’
`Mmm. Give me some more information as to… what sort of things you do here? How you find it…’
`Mmm’
`…compared to Willow ward, and so on?’
`Well this ward is a big step from Willow ward. Willow ward used to be like… boring and… then they would just… one minute they’re talking to you, next thing you’re fighting them. Willow ward is totally different… Willow ward is for people who want to get on… who want to go in the community, who wants to find a job… wants to get a flat and live in it…’
`Mmm… uh huh…’
`I’ve enjoyed Juniper Lodge a lot.’
`Uh huh…
`I mean there’s weekends where we go the seaside, for the day… all our birth… everyone who has a birthday, we always celebrate it.’
`Uh huh…’
`I was allowed to go to college for one year, to the motor maintenance…’
`Whilst you were here?’
`While I was here…’
`At Juniper Lodge?’
`At Juniper Lodge…’
`Uh huh…’
`[Pause] It’s… some… it’s like the weekends, it just depends… if we can get the van, then we will go.’
`Mmm’
`We hope that the nurse will say, `Where would you like to go?’, and then… we’d say like, `Brighton…’, then we’d go to Brighton. We’ve been to South End… Folkestone… Dover… ‘
`Uh huh…’
`You know, just to see the seaside, to… change of atmosphere from being in a… on a ward like this.’
`How many of you are in… on… in Juniper Lodge?’
`Six…’
`Six? And are you all male?’
`We’re all male.’
`Uh huh… Is there a similar ward… a similar Lodge that are female? Or are they…?’
`Well, there is… there’s a mother’s and babies unit, like… mother’s with new born children, who… have problems coping with their child, or…’
`Mmm’
`They… they could be… suffer from depression…’
`Uh huh…’
`And they… they need to… someone to help them…’
`Ok, but it’s just… this is all… all male?’
`This is all male…’
`Male… house…’
`Like, other wards like Shore… Pond… and Pine… they’re mixed wards.’
`Uh huh… have you ever been on a mixed ward…before?’
`I’ve been on a mixed ward.’
`How did you find it?’
`It was alright, but… I… my feeling is… when you’re on a mixed ward, as a man… you tend to think, `Oh, that’s a nice girl, I’d like to get to know her’, and then like… you could be involved in conversation, trying to… understand each other…’
`Mmm’
`But then… something mad happens… [laughs]… and then you start to think, `Oh no… she’s a bit strange… and then you just… either you carry on or you don’t, you know…?’
`So what was your choice? Being on an all male, or mixed ward?’
`[Pause]’
`What have you found to be…?’
`Well…’
`…most useful to you?’
`I found that… I think that all male ward’s better…’
`Mmm… why?’
`’Cause when you’re… when you’re on a mixed ward… you tend to chase after the girls, then once you start chasing after the girls, then the staff will get on your back, and they’re telling you… like… they won’t say directly that, `Oh, do not interfere with that girl’, but… you’re supposed to realise that she’s not well… she’s only in the hospital to get better, so that she can face the community, but… most thing that like… men like men, or others, you just think `she’s a nice girl, I’d like to sleep with her, and…’, there’s a… it… it shouldn’t be really going that way while they’re in hospital.’
`Mmm… but sometimes it goes the other way round…?’
`It does, it…’
`The girls chase…?’
`Yeah some girls…’
`…men?’
`…chase men as well, that’s true…’
`Uh huh…’
`Umm…’
`Ok… as you talked about being on Juniper Lodge, you seemed to [talking in background]… express a sense of belonging?’
`Yeah, yeah…’
`Is that correct?’
`Yeah… that’s how I feel about here…’
`Ok…can you say…’
`’Cause…’
`…something more about why you feel that way?’
`The staff is… very nice… they’re always willing to help you. They’re not like some places on some of the other wards where the build… the… the room itself looks a bit rough. In the morning, the first thing you do, like on our ward, they have breakfast, then you sit down… we might have a meeting at ten o’clock to half past ten, and that would be it for the day, until about… half past two, where you have another kind of class where… where you study… natural history, like you know…’
`Ok…’
`..birds or… like they show you these natural history programmes so that you can talk about it…’
`Uh huh…’
`But I don’t see the point. I… all I think is, they’re just trying to understand what’s in your head, but… I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.’
`Why do you say that?’
`’Cause… my experience, of the staff in other wards, you know… they’re like… it’s like they’ve got a chip on they shoulder. They think they’re really hard and that is it, you know… `don’t talk to me because you’re not as good as me ‘cause I’m not a schizophrenic, you’re a schizophrenic and… and… and… you’re not working, so you’re the lowest of the low…’, and…’
`Mmm’
`That’s how they do it. [Pause]. But Juniper are just being really good to me.’
`Uh huh..’
`I like the way… how they… the… the staff show me respect… and… and I enjoy it when I go out on a weekend, or we drive up the M1 and… go to like… seasides… or… we might go and visit the old Shenley see… see what it looks like, ‘cause I think, what… two weeks ago, we did that.’
`What is it like?’
`Oh…’
`I mean… from the time you’ve been there to what it’s like now, tell me something about that?’
`It’s a big difference. When I was there, there was lots of separate big buildings and… there was like hundreds of people there… many were old people. The younger people were kept closer to each other, but… Shenley was filled with a lot of old people. [Pause] Now… when I went there two weeks ago, the difference was… all the wards, you know, like the X-ray room and doctors’ offices and the… and the central office were all knocked down, and now they’ve got really nice houses built there…’
`Ok…’
`’Cause… it’s like a little community.’
`Ok, so who lives there now… who are living in those houses?’
`Well I think it’s… you know, working class people who go to work and… I think they’re paying their mortgage for it, ‘cause they’re really nice houses, but a bit… small…’
`Uh huh…’
`But they’re very nice houses… brand new… sort of, you know.. sparkly…’
`It’s interesting you talk about… that the old people were kept separate…?’
`Yeah…’
`…to the young people in… in Shenley…’
`Yeah…’
`In the old Shenley. What…what are your views… what are your views on that, or what were your views on… the way you were kept separate?’
`I didn’t really have a view, ‘cause… I’m too busy worrying if I’m going to stay alive [inaudible] or am I going to just… carry on? I mean when we do meet old people, they’re just [???}… they’re not… some of them are really terrible, but… you always watch out for those people to keep away, but there’s some old people are really talkative and… they talk about how they were at home, the jobs they used to do and… when they were in the army and… things like that… and you just talk to them and listen to them…’
`What sort of thing did they used to say?’
`Umm…’
`When they were… during the war and in the army? Did you learn anything from it?’
`I didn’t really learn anything from it, it’s just… just…’
`What sort of things did they talk about?’
`They talked about their… mainly talk about their family, their sons and daughters and… when they come to visit them and… I can’t… it’s…’
`Mmm’
`It’s not very often you get conversation like that…’
`Ok…’
`’Cause most of the time people… they just… the older people would be sitting around the tables and they’re always asking you for money… always asking you to buy them cigarettes or buy them a cup of tea…’
`Mmm’
`And I used to do it sometimes, when I had the money…’
`Mmm… mmm…’
`That’s about it really, because I can’t remember any further…’
`You can’t remember, yeah… you mentioned… something about… some nurses…’
`Yeah…’
`Not here… in Juniper Lodge, but, in other words… wards…’
`Yeah…’
`There… there was an attitude of…’
`Yeah…’
`…having… sort of chip on the shoulder or…’
`Yeah, but…’
`…that they were more important…or how, or whatever…’
`[Both talking together] More important than… yeah…’
`And not giving you much respect…’
`Yeah…’
`How… to what extent did that affect you?’
`Well it affected me a lot because… I’m a very talkative person sometimes, and… I used to talk to the nurses, and thought… you know, they were my friend as we used to get on, but then… as soon as I say, `Oh, I’m not taking my medication, you’re making me too fat, I don’t like the idea of what you’re doing to me’, then their attitude changed. They kind of draw away from you… the next thing twelve peoples’ on you and you’re on the floor…’
`Mmm’
`And they’re kind of choking you… you know, really making you, you know, realise if you don’t take the medication, something seriously could happen to you…’
`Mmm’
`Umm…’
`You seem to have gone through a lot of experiences of… bad… [inaudible]…?’
`Yeah… because…’
`Treatment, isn’t it?’
`Yeah, I mean… I’ve realised that… now… people say `Are you really a schizophrenic?’. I have to say `Yes’, because I can see the problems I have. What I’ve been through, caused me to be that way… but… [pause]…’
`Why has it caused you to be that way?’
`Because… what happened is that I’m brought into hospital where… where I’m thinking `Ooh, this is strange… I hope I go home soon…’, but what you find is that you’re here for like six months… you’re… you’re fed medication. You are thinking to yourself it’s meant to be helping you but then… you find you’re pacing up and down in corridors, you’re feeling some funny sensations in the skin, and you say… feels as… how can it work? I’m not taking drugs. The only drugs I’m taking are from the doctor… I know I don’t really want to walk up and down, but… that’s the position in Shenley you know…’
`Mmm’
`It’s… what I personally think… is that if you go into prison, and you show the prison that you’re not like these guys who jump and fights the officers and… you know, get into fights all the time, misbehaving, then… most probably they will… if you… they will send you to another prison. But if you show them that… oh… prison is boring, all I’m going to do is sleep it through, you know… you sleep in the day time, [laughs] you sleep at night… you can’t sleep in the day time, you stay up, if you can’t sleep in the night time you stay up… that’s what I used to do… just sleep all the time, ‘cause I thought prison was boring…’
`Do… are you saying that that has helped you to cope…?’
`Well, it’s helped me to…’ [both talking together]
`Help you find ways to cope?’
`It’s helped me to cope from a day to day situation… like a long term thing like I’ve got now, but… if you ask me today, and then see what I say tomorrow… that’s how it works for me…’
`Mmm… You said… six of you only are on Juniper Lodge?’
`Yeah…’
`In Juniper Lodge?’
`Yeah…’
`Is it mixed, black and white… an Asians?’
`It’s… black and white.’
`Any Asian..?’
`No…’
`No…’
`There used to be Asians when we was in Shenley…’
`Uh huh…’
`But… I haven’t heard anything from those… people… they… you know, worked it out, and stayed outside…’
`Uh huh…So how many black clients are here?’
`Black…’
`How many of you are black?’
`There’s… Nelson… Fleichman, Herman [ph], Awuzu [???]… or is it… white… [whispers], Nelson, Frenchman… Herman, Awuzu… me… five… and two white. One… one… one is a client that comes from another ward, who’s just staying with us to see how we do…’
`Ok…’
`What we do in the daytime here… and that makes seven of us. But he doesn’t stay in the night time… with us… he stays here ‘till about half past seven, and then he goes back to the other ward where he comes from.’
`Which ward is he from?’
`He’s from Hawthorn.’
`Ok… so he’s just come to see what it’s like?’
`He just comes to see what it’s like… he helps out… in the morning and…’
`Ok…’
`Does the… like he helps out in the evening with the… wash… washing machine… washing and…’
`Washing machine…’
`Washing… oh…’
`Take your time…’
`Washing the plates… knives and forks… things like that…’
`Ok… ok… ok… so is it the intention then as he comes… during the day, so that when one of you move on he can… come in…?’
`He is coming… and take our place…’
`Did you have that experience before you came to Juniper Lodge?’
`He… no… not really…’
`You just came straight…?’
`I just came to… straight… straight to Willow ward, and then from Willow ward into Juniper…’
`Ok, so you didn’t have to come during the… for a time before you…’
`No…’
`…get used…you were… ok…’
[Whispering in background]
[End of DVC Pro tape 2]
[Start of DVC Pro tape 3 – VHS tape 1 continues]
[Camera: `Ok we’re running…recording…ok…’]
`Ok George… we were talking about… you…’
`Yeah…’
`…feeling a sense of belonging in Juniper Lodge…’
`Yeah…’
`And that there are six of you here…’
`That’s right…’
`Four of whom are black?’
`Yeah…’
`Plus two white… clients…’
`Yeah…’
`Ok…So what… what do you have to do here, in Juniper Lodge? How do you spend your day?’
`Well, the way we spend our day is like… we get up at nine o’clock in the morning… then from half past nine, there’s a general meeting for everyone to be there, at half past nine, to ten o’clock, and the things we talk about during that half an hour, is who’s going to do the cooking and… at… at… six o’clock. Who’s… who’s cleaning the smoking area… who’s cleaning the din… dining area… who’s… [pause]…’
`What about the cooking?’
`Yeah… well… we take turns…’
`Ok…’
`For like… for… for during the week, one person does the cooking for all of us during the week… like, one person does it for the day, and another day… then someone else will do it… for like… for that evening. [Pause] We all have do the washing up, like wash the dishes, clean the oven…’
`Mmm’
`You know, the general things, people do at home, you know… plus, we’re learning to budget… how to spend our money properly. Personally, I don’t think he’ll ever make it…’cause… the thing I noticed… you could have like, what thirty five pounds spending on food, and you walk into a supermarket and you’re thinking, `yeah, I’ve got my food’, but then… someone else… is like before you and let’s see… [???] You see… and a really [???]… [laughs]… three grown men that into… into a… into plastic bags, you’re thinking, `Well how’s she going to afford that?’, but then you don’t know if she’s unemployed or is she working?, you know, so it’s…’
`Mmmm’
`It tends to make you… how do I think… [pause]… I can’t think of the… like… you’re aware of what it is, but you’re just thinking… this person’s doing so much and you’re…’
`It’s very tempting…’
`It’s tempting, you know, like…’
`To spend what you haven’t got?’
`Spend… that’s it…’
`[Laughs]’
`That’s what I’m trying to get at… you know…’
`I know… [laughs]… yeah…’
`You know… and…’
`Mmm… So how do you cope with that? Do you… I’m sure you do some shopping as well do you?’
`I do… I do like…’
`And do you go on your own? Tell me something about it… shopping…’
`Well what we do… on a Wednesday, there’s a meeting at two thirty, where we talk about what food we’re going to eat for the week, and we… then we… then… the… the staff will like help us with the spreading of the ingredients, and what we need to put into… into… into food to make it taste nice…’
`Uh huh…’
`The type of vegetables we’re going to eat… and gravy… things like that… and… then… Thursday morning, like two people take turns each week, to go to Tesco’s in Neasden… then we do shopping… in Neasden for all of us…’
`Mmm’
`Oh yeah… and as well as… we all write down what we want to eat for… like for that week, and then… what usually happens is a member of staff will… will look at what we want… gather how much we want, you know, between each of us… and… [pause]… write a list of what we’re supposed to buy in the super… in the supermarket place… so that… we check how much food we’ve got there…’
`Mmm’
`So if we’ve got enough then we won’t get that, but… what we’re short of then we get more of… and it works out… usually it works out alright during the week…’
`Mmm… Uh huh… [pause]. So… you said you usually have… a meeting…’
`Yeah…’
`…to discuss what you’re going to do…whatever…?’
`Yeah…’
`Do you also… discuss how you’re progressing… how…?’
`Yeah…’
`…you have group discussions?’
`We do have group discussions in the morning. If the staff has anything to mention like… there’s a meeting for all of us, then he’d tell us in the morning… or if they… want us to know, how well we’re doing, they tell us… all the time… [inaudible]’
`Individually or as a group as well?’
`Individually and a group, how well we do…’
`Ok…’
`You know… how… how good we’re getting on in what we’re doing…’
`So how do you support each other? How do you encourage each other… here?’
`[Pause]. We all don’t mind doing the work. We all… some of us smokes roll ups, some of us don’t smoke… but we get on… it’s like… [phone ringing in background]… it’s like a mutual understanding… we have… then we all get on. That’s about it…’
`Uh huh… In terms of… being prepared…’
`Yeah…’
`…to go into the community, ie. It could be Craven Park…’
`Yeah…’
`What would you say are… your needs? What are the…specific needs, what are the skills that you, George…’
`Yeah…’
`…would need, that would enable you to go out there, and cope?’
`I do wish I had a bit more money than what we’re getting… because… so far, I can’t own my own telephone. I can just about pay, stamps for television licence… most of my money goes on food. [Pause]…’
`Do you have to buy your own food here?’
`No… no… while we’re here… the government pays for it…’
`Yes…’
`But… I’m not sure when we go into the community, if we all have to put part of our benefit towards…’
`Ok… ok…’
`…for all of us. I’m hoping it works that way, but if it doesn’t…’
`Mmm’
`…I’ll have to… see how… how I’m going to survive.’
`Because you should be able to get some benefits, and a…’
`Yeah…’
`DLA, and income support and all that…?`
`That’s what I’m hoping for…’
`Yeah, uh huh… yeah…’
`Umm…’
`So, besides the money… what else do you think would enable you to go out and stay out in the community and live a fairly normal life?’
`What I would rather… what I really would like… is to save up some money so that I can buy… a reasonably working car… and be a mini cab driver. I know… I could earn my money, each day… putting some away… really getting on, you know…’
`But do you think you would be well enough to do that sort of work?’
`Yeah, of course… I love driving… I love…’
`You feel confident enough?’
`I’m confident enough to drive…’
`And safe enough?’
`And safe enough… but it’s just that… it’s that… it’s… it’s a fact of paying insurance, tax… I have to get all that money together…’
`Mmm’
`Before I take on a car…’
`Uh huh…’
`And then… try to… try to earn some money.’
`Ok…Let’s go back to… you mentioned earlier, about being involved with BUG…?’
`Yeah…’
`Brent User Group?’
`Yeah…’
`Tell me what your understanding is about USER’s getting involved, getting empowered and… developing their confidence and things like that?’
`Well my…’
`How did you get to join BUG?’
`Well, how I got to join BUG was like… they used to send… information to… to like.. to the hospital, for different wards… like a… like it… it’s like a little newspaper, has things about… drop in centres… what… what… poems that people have written… [pause]… general information…’
`Uh huh…’
`Like, there could be a meeting… in… in the… in Willesden College, where they put a room aside where… the people who are Brent Users, go to meetings to like, voice their opinion or to hear another opinion… plus they… they came to… this ward…’
`Uh huh…’
`And… you know… talked to us, explained, like they might have work… where…
just the thing I’m doing now, I could be doing in somewhere else, explaining how I feel… about the Mental Health… Unit situation. [Pause] Vanessa and Shaune from BUG, come in the morning… tell us, you know what… what kind of things they’re offering. If we want to do it, then we can… we can… you know.’
`Are you able to… attend some of those activities on your own?’
`Yeah… oh yes…’
`Or do you have to go with the nurse?’
`Yeah… well I… before, when I was going to college, I had to go with a member of staff… but now, I… that the Home Office increased my… my time in the community, then… I know I can go for myself…’
`Uh huh…’
`Before… well, I couldn’t have gone for myself before, but… because of the Home Office rules that’s on me… I have to go… I have to do what the staff say, and you know…’
`Mmm… I just want you to develop on this thing about going to college, because I know there’s a lot of people who are in the Mental Health System, like yourself…’
`Yeah…’
`Who are very keen to continue their education…’
`Yeah…’
`…or employment in different ways. What… what are your thoughts on that? And how… how do you think it can be encouraged?’
`Well, the thing I think… is that if there’s a meeting in the morning and everyone’s there, and you explain… there’s some courses going in loads of college… where you can learn to… repair a car, how to re-spray it… you know… and something to get you involved… so that you will enjoy it, and then once at the end of your year or two years, if you have a test and you pass, good grades… then just go on to work.’
`Uh huh…’
`Where… where… if you was unemployed… you’ve got to do a lot of running up and down, to… to really find someone to like… support you…’
`Mmm…’
`And…’
`But in terms of… encouraging other …’
`Yeah…’
`…people in the Mental Health System, to go and learn a skill…’
`Yeah…’
`…even whilst they’re in hospital…’
`Yeah…’
`Do you think it’s a good thing and do you think it should be encouraged?’
`I think it should be encouraged, and I think it’s a good thing.’
`Uh huh…’
`I mean we all [inaudible]… Some people don’t really want to work, some people do. I like to work because it keeps me active, makes me feel more better… and… at the end of the week, I should… be able to pay my bills and do the things I want to do.’
`Uh huh…Can you tell me how… the fact that you were able to go and learn Mechanics for a year and did a course…’
`Yeah…’
`Which college did you go to?’
`Copeland School in Wembley High Road.’
`How has that helped you as a person?’
`Well, it’s made me more aware of how a car works.’
`Uh huh…’
`It’s given me… an idea on how… how engine works… how the… the carboretta… there’s ways of keeping your carboretta going, where you clean the filters… umm… there’s like… there’s valves that you’ve got to check…’
`Uh huh…’
`That keeps the car running. If it’s not working then you… you could get a second hand one, or, better still… is to buy a new car.’
`Uh huh…’
`Some parts in cars are reasonable, but there’s parts that… £400 pounds…’
`Mmm… but how has it helped you as an individual?’
`How has helped me?’
`Has it helped… develop your confidence, what…?’
`This is about my confidence… where before I wouldn’t think of something like that, you know…’
`Mmm’
`…tackling a car engine… I wouldn’t think about. While I was in hospital, I said… I thought to myself, `I can’t keep doing what I’m doing… in here… I want to… move on… feel proud about myself. I’ve got a job that I enjoy, and… people who sees the result of it will say `yeah he’s done a good job… he’s… he’s worth the money we’re paying for…’’
`Uh huh…How did you get into that course?’
`Oh, it was a member from BUG… who told me… they’re doing a… they’re doing a… car maintenance course, in Copeland High School, Wembley High Road…’
`Mmm’
`Every Monday, from… seven o’clock to nine o’clock…’
`Uh huh… so… the USER group was useful in…’
`Yeah…’
`…terms of encouraging you?’
`Yeah, they encouraged me to go…’
`Motivate you?’
`…and I said, `I’ll… I’ll give it a try, and I went for two, three weeks, and I enjoyed it, so I went for the… the whole year…’
`Uh huh…’
`And… I’ve learnt some things…’
`Yes…’
`There’s still things that I’m not quite sure of, but…’
`Mmm’
`I hope to… change that.’
`I’m going to bring you on to… you mentioned something about singing?’
`Yeah…’
`Tell me something about it?’
`I was in a group called `Brimstone’, and… we… we used to rehearse in Ladbroke Grove, and… we did a lot of shows. Once we learnt the music, and we took on some manager… I thought `This guy’s a bit `iffy’, you know…’, but… I says `Alright, I’ll try it’, ‘cause I was really in love with singing. The money side of it… I used to never used to think about the money side of it, I used to just enjoy singing… performing.’
`What sort of songs did you sing?’
`Well, it was Reggae songs… some were lovers, some was… political songs from Jamaica… some was… like… you know like Babylon and things like that…’
`Mmm’
`But… I didn’t think it would go as far as Carnival… so… all I know… and we did a lot of shows, and the next thing I know, the BBC came to… to the rehearsal studio… and recorded us rehearsing. They recorded us in Birmingham, where we did a show in Birmingham with… Rasta Michael but that didn’t work out too well… but… Carnival… that was… yeah…’
`That was the highlight?’
`It was the highlight… Carnival…’
`How old were you? How… were you… have you had experience of Mental Health, during time…?’
`No…’
`Or was it before?’
`That was before.’
`How old were you at the time?’
`Oh… [pause]…’
`Approximately…?’
`About twenty, twenty two…’
`Ok…’
`But I was still living with my parents then, because… I didn’t… wasn’t able to find work so… that was what drove me into the music `bizz’, to find… to get the money but… instead of looking for money I was just looking for… singing and enjoying my… and expressing the music, to people…’
`Ok… I just want to cross check something with you… how old were you when you went into the Mental Health System?’
`Twenty five…’
`Twenty five… ok…[pause]. Alright… so what happened in the end with Brimstone?’
`Oh… it was after we went to Belgium to record a LP… it’s like… everyone’s putting their ideas in and I… there was a store… this… there was this man… who’d… who the band… was helping to make music so he could have a Reggae band behind his singing… and his style of Reggae… so like they were playing, and I had a idea of playing the… it’s a simple melody on the organ… sounded nice, gave the music more body… so I’m trying to explain to these guys, you know… try it out… tell the keyboard man to play it. They said, `Oh, shut up George, you don’t know anything… all you’re good for is singing… and dancing on stage…’, so I thought, `Hmm… is that it then?’, so then, went to rehearsal room, tried to explain to them… you know, I like a… a new sound… more.. you know, really… exciting, so people could say.. `That is George’s music… that he’d sung it and it sounds like him’, but… instead… we ended up arguing, and we just… I walked off and I never went back again… then…’
`Mmm… have you ever regretted it?’
`No… no…’
`No regrets?’
`No… I mean those were like… I mean, since… well… for the past few days I’ve been thinking about… a means of business [???], ‘cause… my Social Worker, who works in… Harlesden, has been giving me ideas, you know… start singing again, and get back involved in it… and… a couple of weeks ago I went to my Social Worker for… just to talk… and then she introduced me to this young man who was involved in the music business… he knew… quite… more than me you know… and he encouraged me, you know… said, you know… he heard me sing, then he says, `Oh, you’ve got a sound, you know, but it needs a bit of working on. So… so far… things have been alright… I’m just waiting to see where… where is it taking me, you know…’
`So I… I suppose… at the end of the interview I can get you to… give us a little note?’
`Oh… [both laugh]… oh, well I don’t know…’
`Are you going to think about it I suppose?’
`I’ve got to think about it, yeah… yeah…’
`Got to think about it… give you time to prepare? Let’s move on to… as a black person…’
`Yeah…’
`…in the Mental Health System, you’re not the only one I know…’
`Yeah…’
`But… there seems to be… a lot of young black men like yourself…’
`Yeah…’
`…coming into the system and going to prison and then shifted off…’
`Yeah…’
`Shifted into the Mental Health System, which you seem to… have had…’
`Yeah…’
`…as an experience…what are your views on that? And do you think it’s getting worse?’
`I think it’s getting worse, because I’m seeing more… young men come here and… you know, they look like… one minute they’re looking like themselves, then the next time we see them they look like a zombie, and you think to yourself, `What are they doing to that guy?’, you know. He’s… one minute he was alright, and then the next minute he doesn’t say anything to you he just walks up the road… goes to the shop, comes back, but you can see in him, he was like a zombie… he’s like a… like his soul has been… like that, you know. I don’ t like the idea of it… I would like to… as a black man… I would like to see black people step forward, not backwards. I’m having a… I can see slightly it’s working… although there’s… black… whether woman that comes on TV, there’s Trevor MacDonald… there’s… other people who… who’ve worked alongside… people with influence…’
`Mmm’
`It’s slowly happening, but…’
`Mmm’
`But I hope… we can get a more bigger field of… of people to represent black people… ‘cause black people are not dumb… we work… ‘cause they asked us to come to this country to work the job that… other people… English people wouldn’t do…’
`Mmm… and what do you think are the… some of the reasons why so many young black men are getting into problems… with prisons, with the Mental System…Mental Health System?’
`I think… in my view it could be drugs… and a lot of… you know.. the influence of modern culture is… you go to a rave, you take an `E’, or you… you take speed. That’s how English people… take `E’ and speed, but for a black man, it’s like… smoke a spliff or… you hit some cocaine...’
`Mmm’
`Those things are not… it doesn’t take… it doesn’t bring you… anywhere, doing things like that, but… I think… it brings you down, you know…’
`Why do you think they’re driven to…?’
`It’s a… it’s…’
`…to drugs… and not only black people, but…’
`I’m… I…’
`…why do you think it’s driven… driving people to that extent, which makes them… get into the Mental Health System?’
`[Pause]’
`Why?’
`Mmm… I can’t… I can’t think of anything…’
`Can’t think of that one?’
`No…’
`Mmm… Can you see any common things that you’ve been through…?’
`Yeah…’
`That could be happening?’
`Yeah… umm…’
`Other young men out there? Some of whom are probably still in prison…and…[inaudible].’
`Yeah… I can see… I can see where… if you’re black, you’re a second rate citizen. When you go for a job, you’re thinking `It’s me… one going for the job’, but really… it’s about ten other people before you, is going for the same one job… and only the best one’s going to get it.’
`Mmm… mmm…’
`I’m…’
`Yeah… ok… I just want to take you back, just to cover…just to clarify one item…’
`Yeah…’
`One issue.. when you were in Shenley, you said there weren’t many black patients there?’
`Well, there weren’t… there was just a few, but… over the years, it builds up…’
`Yeah… so did you all… did you all meet… as… as black patients together and share experiences, or you just didn’t mix?’
`Yeah… we… now… to be honest, we all shared experiences and we all talked to each other… we got on…’
`Uh huh…’
`Even though we’re in separate… buildings or separate… wards… there was a time for us to meet… and talk…’
`What did you talk about?’
`Umm… most of them guys just talked about women, you know…’
`[Laughs]’
`What they would like to do to this girl… and then, there was some of us, like me, who’s always complaining about… staff and not enough money and things like that. I did like the women as well, but then… I decided not to mix business with pleasure, ‘cause it gets you into trouble.’
`Mmm… which was a sensible thing… to think…’
`Yeah…’
`But because like you said, the majority of the patients there were old… did you feel… how did you feel about it… as a young person?’
`It didn’t really worry me…’
`It didn’t worry you?’
`It didn’t worry me, ‘cause… most of the time, you know who to watch out for after a while… you know, the guy who says, `Oh, can you spare me a cigarette?’… give him one cigarette…`Can you spare me a cigarette?’…’
`[Laughs]’
`You give him two cigarettes, `Can you spare me…?’… oh, none of that… so it has to come to an end… you know.. and… but old people, they’re all alright… you know…’
`Ok… In terms of…your… just going back again, just briefly…’
`Yeah…’
`On your family, that… they weren’t able to visit you as often as you’d like…?’
`Yeah…’
`But for your brother and sister, you can visit them?’
`Yeah…’
`Do they come and visit you here?’
`So far my brother… my oldest brother’s been here twice… but… he’s come to see me…’
`Uh huh…’
`But I haven’t seen my sister because… we fell… we fall out over my ghetto blaster. I bought this beautiful ghetto blaster, it was really nice. I says to my sister, `Look after it for me until I come out of hospital’… came out of hospital, went to her flat, and the thing was in ruins… [laughs]. I says, `Oh…’ I couldn’t believe it… I gave it her ‘cause I thought I could trust my sister… but instead, when I went there it was like someone just threw rubbish at it and on the floor… this is… this is about a £185 pound worth of equipment I paid for, and she did… her kids destroy it… I was just so upset I just says, `No, I’m not going to see you any more…’, I just keep quiet by myself…’
`How do you control your emotions… your anger? And… let… let me re-phrase… how do you control your emotions when things like that happen… to you?’
`I can… it… I just… I just look at it and say, `oh well, it’s happened… I’ll just let you go, there’s another day again.’ As long as I can work I’ve got to get money together to make more… I will get it back again…’
`Mmm’
`Most of the time my… I… my emotions… I do cry…’
`You do?’
`And I do feel it… for some people… and I… I feel it for my family as well… ‘cause I would… no matter how much… I go through with my family, I will always, you know… show them… give them food, drink, water… anything, and like… even my
friends I would do that for…’
`What do you cry about sometimes?’
`Oh my… my brother’s death… my dad’s death… when I think about it. The way they treat me in prison… the way they used to treat me when I was on the… on… these hospital grounds [???]… but now… since I’ve been in Juniper Lodge, my life has changed a lot, you know…’
`Mmm… How do you cope? You know you cry about all these things?’
`Yeah…’
`Are you able to get some counselling, to talk it through?’
`I am able, but I just don’t want it… ‘cause I will cover… and I know… I might feel it for one day, I might feel it for an hour… but once the feeling goes, I will recover.’
`[Pause] I’m sitting here looking at you… and just remembering some of the things you mentioned… that spirit of freedom…’
`Yeah…’
`Is that what helps to keep you going?’
`Yeah… I think so. It’s a feeling of… well, I dream some days [???]… like one day, I might meet the right woman… and… I… I’m… that’s all I’m waiting for, is to meet the right woman. If I can buy a car and do my driving as a job, I know my life will change more than what it is now.’
`Uh huh…’
`I hope it’s when I’ve met her but until I try, I will never know…’
`Mmm. Do you keep in touch with your mum? Do you…[both talking together]’
`Yeah I do… I… my mum used to come over and we used to sit and talk. At the moment, I haven’t got any money to go over there with her… so, I have to somehow, save some money or get some money so I can go… to… to the Caribbean… and see… see my mum and be with her, you know…’
`But do you write? Do you… ever written…?’
`Honestly… I’ve never written, but I have speaking to her when she came over…’
`Uh huh…’
`You see with me… I’ll get a telephone number and an address… I’ll put it down somewhere… when I go back to it, it’s gone… [laughs]… so I could have taken it and put it somewhere else, and not remember where I put it and… that’s what I usually do is I lose the address, I lose the telephone number… then, I have to wait until I get permission from the Home Office so that I can go to see my older brother to find out the telephone number…’
`Ok… can’t you ring out? Can’t you ring?’
`I can, but… my brother’s telephone… I don’t know it. I don’t know any of my family’s telephone numbers.’
`Have you thought of getting a diary?’
`I’ve…’
`A small diary?’
`I’ve got a diary for this year… and… from… I have found out my brother’s telephone number…’
`Mmm’
`And I was trying to give him a ring sometime this week because… the last time I saw him, he said he’s going back to the West Indies… so that he can help my mum to get on…’
`Ok…’
`And… I’m…’
`Which one is that?’
`That’s… Ruth Joseph… that’s my mum…’
`Yeah, but which brother?’
`Oh, Garfield, sorry…’
`Garfield…’
`Garfield…’
`But he’s going… going back for good?’
`I think he wants to, just to get the finance, because… he’s been going over there… when my father died he went over, so did Roy…’
`Ok…’
`And was with my mum for a while… then…’
`Mmm’
`He told… when I saw him when he came back… he said, `Oh, my mum’s very upset, she’s not talking to anybody…’
`Naturally…’
`I know she would feel like that, because… you know… she loved my father and my father loved her… and…’
`Does it still bother you?’
`No…’
`Does it still…[Inaudible]?’
`It… it comes…’
`Are you still grieving?’
`No, I’m not grieving any more, but it still comes back, you know… I wasn’t there with my… my brothers and… I couldn’t show how I felt… in front of my mum so she couldn’t understand that I… I did love my father, I love my brother and… I wanted… just to express the feeling you know…’
`[Pause] You seem to… be looking ahead?’
`Yeah…’
`Your ambition is to move forward as you rightly said?’
`Yeah…’
`How… how do you think you’re going to be able to continue to move forward?’
`Hmm… maybe if I got a job working for BUG… because BUG… they pay you twelve pound, fifty pence an hour… and I know work… if I can get work that pays me that type of money [banging and voices in background]… if I get work that can pay me that type of money… I know… at the end of the week, I’ll have enough to pay all my worries and… and have a little bit to… save… and I know… as long as I can save some money so that I can look forward and… I should go forward…’
`So that’s one of your intentions?’
`That’s one of my intentions… to save up some money… enough money so I can get a nice car…’
`You need to get the job first…isn’t it?’
`I need to get the job first, but… it’s the car… you can’t get a job unless you’ve got a car… and there is… there’s jobs where you can use a car, but then you’ve got to pay for it…’
`Yeah…’
`So, I’d rather save the money…’
`Ok… there is… currently a lot of groups like BUG…’
`Yeah…’
`…in different areas… how do you think BUG in addition to probably finding a temporary job with BUG… how do you think groups like that can help people like you?’
`Umm… [pause]… I think they can… ‘cause the people… who run BUG… they’ve got nothing to do with the hospital… and… they are on the side of the… of the people who… who are… who use them… [pause]. They’re helpful… they always give you ideas… they keep in contact… with the people who work for BUG like… like… [screaming in background]… people who… who does poems who… who find… voluntary work, or… or… or… or temporary work and they find a range of things… when… when… eighty five, you couldn’t do that… there was nothing like that around, and like… before BUG there was Advocacy worker who worked in Harlesden, used to… come and see you, sort out your differences with Social Security… who would give you… a helping hand to get forward…’
`Uh huh…’
`And that’s what I think BUG is trying to do…’
`Uh huh… have you ever had any experience with Advocacy workers?’
`Yeah I have…’
`And how useful are they?’ [Screaming in background]
`Very useful. There’s this… I remember… when… there was a stage where I was… there was kind of a… a stand up between me and Social Security over some money they owed me… and they kept saying no they didn’t… and I said, yes you did… and then… for one week I was silent, and then… I was speaking to one of the patients outside, where we sit and talk, and she says there’s a place called… there’s an Advocacy worker at Harlesden might be able to help you… so I says, `Yeah..’, so I rang up. She says, `Oh, so that’s what they’re doing?’, you know… the… in my case… I used to go and speak to people without asking their names or… their background, and when the Advocacy worker you know… thought, `Oh, so this is what’s happening’, she went… a few days, she was down there with me… she wrote down the names of the people, people… what jobs they were doing… who to speak to… to get this all sorted out… and she’d done the lot… and I was happy. At the end of the day I went home with some money, and I could smoke my cigarettes, I could buy more food to put in my kitchen… and that was it… I… that… she was really helpful that day, and I would never put her down for it… ‘cause I know she was really helpful. If it wasn’t for her, I still would be suffering ‘till the Tuesday, and then Wednesday…’
`So there is a role for Advocacy workers?’
`Yeah… they’re very helpful… plus… there’s situations where she could come… and listen… on your behalf, to what the doctor says… like… his ideas of what he thinks I should be doing… and they’re usually… if you ask them to come then they would come and they’d… help you listen to put your point of the argument over…’
`Mmm… yeah. In terms of… the doctors…’
`Yeah…’
`Listening to you… when you were in Shenley, and even here?’
`Yeah…’
`To what extent do they really take on board… your views and… and help you… to get what you want?’
`Umm…’
`Be it medication or what have you? How responsive are they?’
`Well… they’re responsive but they’re very slow. You’ve got to keep on plugging, plugging… you want new medication… and then finally, they’ll see you… then your… your co-worker… you know… in that, nurses will come there to speak on your behalf and how… how you heard about the medication, if it was the doctor who advised you to take it… [pause]… I… this is… I can’t remember… [laughs].’
`Yes… in terms of medication… so if the… if… someone didn’t recommend it they wouldn’t change it, is that what you’re saying? If say you…’
`No… [both talking together]’
`…you have it from…’
`Yeah…’
`…grass root, you know… from your… from your network…’
`Yeah…’
`They tell you there’s a new medication on the… on the market…’
`Yeah…’
`And it’s… it’s good…’
`Yeah, they wouldn’t give it to me. There’s times where they’ve done it, where they have given it to me, that’s like the… the doctor’s decision, but then… like… for the last time this time… I heard about it and I explained… he says, `There’s a lot involved in taking this medication because you’ve got to have a blood test, every week… then you have it every two weeks, and then finally, every… once a month… and… I’ve been through that… all of that… up to once… once a month now, and the… it seems to be alright…’
`You’re alright?’
`I… I couldn’t put it wrong…’
`Ok… You mentioned about… at BUG they do poetry and what have you…’
`Yeah…’
`How important do you think it is, to be able to do… you know, to write about your feelings and what have you? [Pause] And have you done any… creative writing?’
`[Laughs] To be honest, I haven’t done any creative writing… but I think it’s good. It depends on who you are… you might… you might… you might… you want to do it…’
`Mmm’
`…and it might… it might please you to do it, but I’ve never been a… a writer myself…’
`So you’re not… you’re not interested in that area?’
`No…’
`But you’re aware that… BUG offer this…?’
`Yeah… yeah…’
`…this facility?’
`Yeah…’ [Pause].
`So more or less you’ve lived in Harlesden all… all your life?’
`No…’
`Even though you’ve been in hospital?’
`No… what… I used to live in Kensal Rise [ph]…’
`Ok…’
`My parents came… though they had a house in Kensal Rise [ph]…’
`To which Borough does that come under?’
`That comes under… Brent…’
`Ok… and Harlesden come under?’
`Harlesden comes under Brent, but Harlesden’s like… from Kensal Rise [ph]… just a step more… to Harlesden, and then from Harlesden it goes to Stonebridge…’
`Ok…’
`And from Stonebridge it goes to Monks Park [ph] Wembley…’
`Ok… yeah… so how long have you lived in… in Harlesden then?’
`Mmm’
`Roughly?’
`About eight years, on my own…’
`Eight years on your own… [pause]… yeah… [pause]. So when… when do you think you’d be… or, like you said, you’re… you’re not sure as to when… when you’ll be transferred to Craven Park [ph]?’
`No, I’m not sure, I’m just waiting to hear…’
`Mmm…[pause]. In terms of your… your friends, have you got many friends outside of…?’
`Yeah… I’ve got friends…’
`…Juniper Lodge?’
`There’s people I can go to see… you know, talk… just talk or…listen music…’
`And do they keep in touch with you?’
`Well, they… [pause]… to be honest, they don’t really keep in touch with me because, most of the people I used to go clubs with, they’re all… married or they have their… their girlfriend round and children… or… they’re working… you know, they like move away…’
`Uh huh…’
`Where I stay… more or less the same…’
`How… how do you feel about that? What sort of feeling do you get when you think `oh, all my friends have moved on…’
`Yeah…’
`…here I am…?’
`I get a feeling of sadness, because I would like to move on as well like them. Go forward, you know… start working, pay my mortgage… you know, and make a family… support them. But… I don’t think God wants my life to go that way… [laughs]…’
`Why is that?’
`’Cause… it would have gone like that a long time ago if I was… if He wanted me to… so… I just go… go where God puts me… where He leads me, ‘cause… I believe in Him…’
`You do?’
`I do believe in God… and I’m… there’s times where He’s stepped in and helped me, and… I’ll never forget that, so…’
`There seems to be, from my experience, a lot of… especially black clients or patients that I meet…’
`Yeah…’
`They have a very, very strong belief in God…’
`Yeah…’
`They are spirituality base, is very strong…’
`Yeah…’
`And they seem to be saying the same thing that you’re saying… that… you know, it is His will that they’re in whatever position…’
`Yeah..’
`Have you always believed in God?’
`I’ve always believed in God, from a… from a very young age… I used to go to… a Saturday School in Ladbroke Grove, where Nuns would teach from the Bible, teach me to read… what’s in the Bible… how to understand The Bible stories. You know, they used to tell us Bible stories… then… it was a thing for Catholic people… they’ve got to… pass Holy Communion… where… where… you were taught by Nuns… The Bible… understand The Bible stories… and then you go to church at Christmas, where… where the Priest might ask you some questions, or they… they… you know, you… you have a ceremony where you… take the Holy Bread, a sip of… of Holy Wine, and…’
`Holy Communion?’
`Holy… that’s Holy Communion, that’s it…’
`Holy Communion…’
`Yeah…’
`I take it… are you Catholic?’
`I’m Catholic…’
`Mmm…and your parents?’
`Yeah, my parents are Catholic as well…’
`Your whole family?’
`Yeah…’
`Yeah… so you… you have that very strong belief?’
`Yeah… from a young age I’ve always believed in God…’
`And how do you apply that… in coping with your experiences?’
`Errr…’
`How do you… you said He’s helped you… and blah, blah, blah…’
`Yeah…’
`How? Give me some examples as to how you believe having that spiritual belief has helped you?’
`Umm… I… there… there was a time where I used to get into arguments with people here because they were very negative… and… I used to get into fights… so… there was a stage where I was outside the community, and… I was visiting my younger brother, and… there was a time where… where… this man… one of the people I’d argued much with… he saw me in… near [inaudible] and… he pulled a knife on me… and… [pause] you know, I think I don’t want to talk about that… ‘cause I could get into trouble… [laughs]… but it was… a very scary situation… and… it worked it’s way out at the end…’
`Ok… and you believe God’s…’
`Yeah, because…’
`...[inaudible]…’ [both talking together]’
`…he used… he kept… he kept saying, `Don’t you be… without it, don’t you be without it… you know…’, I was thinking `what? what?’
`Don’t you what?’
`He says, `don’t you be without… a weapon’’
`Ok…’
`So… I shouldn’t really be talking about this, ‘cause it could get me into trouble…’
`Ok… ok… that’s fine… that’s fine… but God has helped you to cope with it?’
`[Both talking together] You… even when you realise… he says… he kept bugging me and like saying, `keep the weapon, just in case… someone threatened you… then you feel threatened and back and tell them to leave you alone’… and that’s what happened…’
`Mmm’
`Because… if I didn’t have it… then that person who pulled a knife on me would have ran across the road and stabbed me to death…’
`Ok…’
`And then, what really happened, is that he went off running and I went up to visit my brother and… it was left like that… because I know that… if I didn’t have it on me, I would have been dead.’
`You would have been dead?’
`I would have been… ‘cause I would have had nothing to defend myself, except my two fists… while the other guy pulls a knife…’
`But you know God isn’t into…?’
`He’s not into it, but He’s…’ [Both talking together]
`[Laughs] Into weapon and what have you, but…’
`He was… in… in this… in this… well it just… just worked out that way…’
`Ok… it just worked out that way…?’
`It worked out that way…’
`Ok… I think we are at a stage where… we’ll cut…’
`Yeah…’
`…and have a break?’
`Yeah…’
`And…Hi George, welcome back…’
`Hello Pauline…’
`Right… I just want to clarify a few things…’
`Yeah…’
`One of which… do you… did you attend church whilst you were… whilst you were at Shenley?’
`No, not really…’
`You didn’t attend any church service there?’
`Only… maybe one or two…’
`Ok… what about here?’
`Well…’
`At Juniper Lodge?’
`We have… well there’s… a nurse… who’s like very spiritual… and… every two weeks on Sunday, we get together to sing… Praise to… to The Lord and God and Jesus…’
`Mmm’
`And… he talks to us about the stories in The Bible, that kind of… explain over these days, you know…’
`Mmm’
`Umm… that’s about it really.’
`So you have a group sort of fellowship?’
`Yeah, well we’re on the… he would help us to pray more often than what we really do… and… he… he quotes… parts of The Bible, that he thinks that would… you know, interest us…’
`Ok... have you found that useful?’
`I actually find it useful, but… I’m a more private person than… you know…’
`Ok…’
`’Cause, I prefer to go to Confession and…’
`Ok…’
`Than to really pray the way… how he wants us to do it, because it’s very open and… I don’t want the people to hear my… what I want to pray about…’
`Do you pray to… in your room, privately?’
`Privately, I…’
`Or do you talk to God or whatever?’
`I pray… I pray… I pray… you know, like… if there’s something wrong, or… I feel to pray for someone I will do it… and… that’s about it.’
`Ok… the other area that I needed clarification on…’
`Yeah…’
`…was, whether or not you’ve had any experience of talking therapy? You know, like one to one, just talking things through… with your Counsellor?’
`The doctor used to do something like that but, the thing you’ll find is like, Willow ward, everything’s a group thing, you know… everyone who wants to attend can go there and do the course what the nurses put out for us…’
`But you’ve never had one to one, talking sessions?’
`I don’t think so… I don’t think so. Everything was done in a group.
`Ok, everything was done in a group’
`But you know like in a group where everyone’s there, and then one to one…’
`Ok… take turns?’
`…where the people… take turns…’
`Ok…[pause]. Right… we are at a stage where we’re going to bring the interview…’
`Yeah…’
`…to an end, but the other things that I just want your final views or comments on… that the fact that here you are at… Juniper Lodge…’
`Yeah…’
`…having come from Willow ward…which could be viewed as… one of what you call community care…’
`Yeah…’
`Helping you to progress from hospital into the community…’
`Yeah…’
`What are your general views on that… how do you think things have changed since you've been at Shenley?’
`It’s strange, like the nurses… at… well… the attitude I get from the nurses here is very friendly. The day… they want to help you. When I was on the other wards, years ago… it was difficult like… they wanted you to get into trouble with them so they can… you know, do what they want, you know… if you fall for the trap, you’re gone… but… here… in Juniper Lodge is very… you know, friendly. The nurses help us, they take us for weekend trips… they try to find interesting things for us to… to go through. There’s a… there’s a OT woman named Carol, who… who… who sets up like questionnaires, like on pop music and… to get us interested to see which one of us is covering up our feet [???] but…’
`So how do you come out on that when… you have a [inaudible]?’
`Got more about than you do [???] but… [laughs]…’
`So do you think it’s a good thing that the government has closed down those old hospitals?’
`It’s a good thing… it’s a good thing. The old hospitals, anything can happen to you and… if it did… you wouldn’t… you would never like be able to find out the truth. Here, sometimes you… you might… you might find it hard but… somehow you will get to the outside… but… in Shenley, oh no… no one knows you’re there… no one… no one comes to see you, no one can help you… until they say so. So… that’s how it is…’
`So in your own words, what would you say your experiences has been… from the time you went into Brixton, into Shenley…’
`Yeah…’
`And you went to… Juniper Lodge, here at the Centre for Mental Health…’
`Yeah…’
`Park Royal…Hospital… in your own words, tell… just sum it up for me…’
`Umm… [pause]…’
`How would you describe it?’
`I would describe it as… [pause]… sometimes hell… and sometimes… sometimes it… it’s very enjoyable… you know, when you go for weekend trips… but when… things have changed, from you know… from… like Shenley is for… when you was in Shenley, everybody was being treated really bad, you know, but now, since they’ve opened the… the local… hospitals, in the area that’s close to where your friends are… it’s… it’s more friendly. Long… if you want to run away you can run away, but you know you can’t get too far from there, so… it’s alright. I think it’s alright… I… think it’s ok…’
`What would you say are your hopes… for the future, in terms of your family… your friends…’
`Yeah…’
`For you… as an individual?’
`My hopes is… I hope… that I can save enough money, buy a car… earn enough money to go to the West Indies, see my mum, I hope before she dies. I will go and see my sister one day… but I won’t be going without a car. I’m going to have my car… and then… I’ll visit my families… and show my face… but I won’t be doing it too often, ‘cause I’m going to be definitely looking for that woman… and until I meet her, I’m going to still keep on going until I do…’
`How… as we approach… the new millennium…’
`Yeah…’
`The year 2000…’
`Yeah…’
`Where do you think you’d be? Would you be still here do you think or… would George Joseph be out there in Craven Park, in his own flat? What… what do you think will be the…[inaudible]?’
`The only thing… I can pray to God… I hope he guides me the right way, puts me on the… on the right path, like… what I personally would like is to.. go to Craven Park… do the best I can. If I can make the money to get a car, I will get it… but it’s going to take me some time to save the money. I just hope I don’t fall into traps… you know where… where I will get angry, and violent, and then the next thing I know, I’m brought back here. I just want to do driving as a job as… for my life… ‘cause I know I can cope with it, I’m not scared of driving down the road. I’m very courteous to other drivers… I just hope I can… do that… and… put me into a future.’
`Well thank you George… your contribution to this interview has been very good…’
`Alright Pauline…’
`I hope you maintain your spirit of freedom…’
`I hope to with work… [???]’
`As your journey continues into the new Millennium…’
`Yeah, into the new Millennium…’
`Thank you.’
`Yeah, thank you Pauline…’
`God Bless…’
`Thank you.’
[End of DVC Pro tape 3 of 3 - End of VHS Pro tape 1 of 1]
