21 KEN DUCKWORTH

‘OK Ken it’s really good to have this opportunity to talk to you.
 
‘Thank you, nice to meet you.’
 
‘I know you said you were feeling a little bit nervous but I’m sure, as time goes on, you know, it’ll just turn into a chat rather than an interview.’
 
‘OK.’
 
‘I wonder, if we can start by, can you tell me a bit about where you were born and, and when you were born.’
 
‘I was born in Columbo, Sri Lanka, in 1937.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘and I went to school, a catholic school in Colombo, St. Peters.  I, I, I wasn’t very good in school, I wasn’t very bright.  I was more interested in cricket, and I studied, took up my GC exams and I failed my university entrance exam, but I was so keen on cricket that I neglected my studies and I left school at the age of, age of eighteen and then I joined the company, a tea company, tea exporters.  I was a tea taster which was a good job.  I got the job mainly because of my cricket, because they were a very keen company, they employed a lot of cricketers and I did quite well.  I was happy for about two years and then trouble broke out in Sri Lanka, there was a lot of political trouble, lots of people being killed.  The Prime Minister was killed who was shot by Bhuddist priest and then my parents and I and my family had a discussion about leaving Sri Lanka and coming to England and I got really excited about that I thought that was a good idea.  But things were pretty bad in Sri Lanka, lots of problems.  So we came to England in 1958 and I joined the Crown Agents Overseas Government, bound to the Civil Services as a temporary clerical officer.  Then after two years I was established as a, as a clerical officer, I was established and on permanent staff and then two years later after that I was promoted the first time as an executive officer, good promotion.  Unfortunately it didn’t turn out very well, it didn’t work out very well for me.  After about a year or two I started getting ill, mentally ill, and started taking sick leave and then it went on for about another year and then I had a breakdown and I was very very upset and worried.’
 
‘All right.’
 
‘and my boss saw me and told me to have some leave, sick leave, and hoped that I would recover and be better and I did take about two months sick leave, I was receiving treatment from a psychiatrist, seeing a psychiatrist and they gave me medication every day and then I took, I married, I married a Sri Lankan girl in England and she, she knew I was having problems in my job but she didn’t mind marrying me.  She, she, we were very much in love.  Then after a while I had, felt I needed a holiday, I had to get away from my illness from my problems.  So I went to Sri Lanka with her for a holiday and my boss didn’t mind it at all he said ‘It would be a good idea if you have a holiday.’  I went to Sri Lanka and my, my wife was an asthmatic, she wasn’t very well herself and at the end of the third month in Sri Lanka she collapsed and died with her, with her  after an attack of her asthma.  She collapsed and died.  I was with her when she died and then I didn’t, I was lost, I didn’t know what to do with my life.  I loved her, I had a little baby to look after, Michelle, you know Michelle, my daughter.  I had her with me.  I cabled my parents in England and my boss.  I told, told them, I sent them telegram saying what happened and they sent me telegrams sympathising with me and told me to come back and they’d sort out my problems.  I might be demoted in my job but I might get better.  So I was hap, quite happy about that.  But it took me a long time to get over my wife’s death.  So I came back to England after the fu, my wife’s funeral, came back to England with my daughter and I stayed with my mum and dad in London, a house in London and my mum said she’d look after my daughter for me and told me not to worry she’d care for me and see that I’m ok.  So I did come back and I had an interview with my boss and he told me, he was quite concerned about me.  He said ‘Do you want to continue as an executive or do you want me to demote you in your job and I had no option, I was so scared I might have stress first few months that I said I would like to be demoted which was what I really wanted and he did demote me and then I settled down very well in my job again, it took me just a little while to get back to normal with my job and I started doing clerical work again.  Got my confidence back and I hoped, hope I did my job well, I think I did and things got even better and then my daughter was growing up, Michelle, you see my daughter was growing up, my mum and dad were getting a bit old and they were concerned and they, they were doing a lot for me and my daughter and things went on.  I started playing cricket again which I was enjoying and then after eight years I fell in love with an English girl and I decided to get married a second time.  I was a bit happier, excited about it but I was feeling very lonely, I wanted to share my life with someone, someone new, some one close, close to me and I did get married a second time and we had a good wedding, a nice wedding, my first wedding was in Westminster Cathedral, roman catholic church, big wedding.  Second wedding was in  Reg, a Registrar’s office and it turned out quite well, very good girl, very good party.  I was quite happy.  I moved into a flat in Willesden, London and I took my daughter with me and I managed, very close to my mother and dad, and my mum used to come and see me every day and I was getting on nicely and then again you, you wouldn’t believe what happened to me.  Just after my second marriage my boss phoned me and say he would like to have a talk with me and I was a bit scared and worried what it was all about, and he said to me, he was going to promote me a second time.  Just after my second marriage and I don’t, I was too scared to turn the promotion down, I said OK.  I didn’t, I didn’t realise know what was going to happen again, second time.  I said ‘all right sir, that would be all right.  Do you think I’m good enough to be promoted a second time?’, and he said ‘Yeah do quite good work’.  So I took the promotion and then my problems started again.  Same as the first time.  I started taking sick leave after a few, after a year or two.  Same problem as the first time, getting ill, too much pressure of work, having problems and then I had a second breakdown in my job, you know.  It all started over again.  Just like the first time.  I had a breakdown, I thought when I first felt like this I thought I was dying, I thought I was dead, I was really scared and again my boss came to my desk to see me, they contacted him and he told me to have some sick leave again and he was ‘sorry what had happened and he said I hope you don’t blame me for what’s happened.  I really promoted you in good faith I thought you were good enough to do the job well again.’  So I accepted his apology and I went home and unfortunate for me I, I started quarreling with my wife, we started quarreling.  She was complaining about me being sick and staying at home while she was going to work and she was worried about the children about my three children.  Oh we had two babies, sorry, two babies from second marriage, Christina, MCC, Michele, Christina and Christopher, named after cricket [laughs]  It was quite exciting, and then one day she told me she, she said ‘I think you’d better go into a mental hospital, I can’t cope with you’ she said, I said, ‘You better go into a mental hospital, you need treatment, I can’t, can’t have treatment at home’ [sighs].  So I contacted St. Bernard’s Mental Hospital.  I got the address, I phoned up the consultant there, I told him about my problems and he said he, if I wanted to be admitted it would be all right.  So I did get admitted and I spent about a year, six months to a year in hospital, in St. Bernard’s, and they gave me lots and lots of ECT for my depression and after a while they, they, they, they discharged me and I, I was not feeling well at all, after the ECT, it had an effect on my brain, on my mind, and then I was missing my wife and children.  I wanted to see my wife and be with my children.  So I went home one day and then my wife said I’m not fit to be a man, her husband, and we started quarreling again and thing’s were getting out of hand and I was so concerned about my children, I said ‘I’m missing you and the children, I want to be at home with you’ and she wouldn’t have it.  She had no sympathy for me, with my illness, she, I’m not blaming a 100 per scent but it was my illness that, to get something all.  She put, put the children in the car in the morning, in the evening and said she can’t cope with me, she’s leaving me, and I said ‘I want to talk to you, please sit down and listen and let’s discuss this problem, this matter, let’s talk about it’ and she wouldn’t, didn’t want to know and then all of a sudden the air, something triggered, triggered off, I, I just went crazy for a second when she said she wanted to do, she asked me for a divorce and that triggered me off and in the state of mental health I was in, the mental problems I was in I went for her, I stabbed her with a carving knife, and then, I got, I got so worried I ran from the house straight to the police station and I told the police what I’d done.  So they sent a car to our house and thank God they took her to the hospital, Northwick Park Hospital, she was stitched up, they saved her life.  She was very, very seriously ill.  I very nearly killed her, and then I was arrested by the police and taken to Brixton Prison and I had an interview with, at Brixton, with the Governor, and then I was awaiting trial at the Old Bailey and I went, before the judge at the Old Bailey and I pleaded not guilty, I pleaded not guilty.  I said I was insane.  I was insane and mentally sick in, insanity that made me trigger off, what I’d done, and I said that under severe provocation by my wife and unfortunately the judge wouldn’t have it.  He wouldn’t accept my mental illness.  He gave me a six year prison sentence and I was shattered.  I collapsed in the dock, I collapsed, I was in a shocking state.  I, I was so frightened of being confined to prison, sent to prison, and, he gave me six years.  So I did spend a few months in Brixton, then I went to Wormwood Scrubs, and then to Maidstone, open prison and it was hell for me those four and a half years, absolute hell.  The conditions were shocking, the food was really disgusting.  I went on strike, hunger strike.  I said I wasn’t going to eat anything, I wanted to die and this, they got a doctor and a psychiatrist to see me about three or four times a week, they came to see me in my cell, no they took me out and interviewed me and I done, I did my sentence and I came out and my mum was so worried and concerned about me that she said she’d look after me again, she’d look after me and I moved in with my mum in a top flat in Hendon Central and I settled down for a while but I was so worried about the, what happened and still worried and then unfortunately my mum died from a heart attack and I had nowhere to live.  I was on my own in the flat, I couldn’t live alone, I was afraid that I might harm myself with the way I’d, of what I’d done, I was afraid of harming myself and then my brother came to see me and he told me the best thing for me to do was to go back to another mental hospital, or to go back to St. Bernard’s and that upset me again, that upset me again.  I thought I’d done my prison sentence and I would be a free man when I came out.  I didn’t like the idea of going back into another mental hospital but he said I mustn’t worry my brother and he contacted Napsbury and the consultant came to see me and I was re-admitted into another hospital Napsbury and they told me that they’d put me on the rehabilitation ward, for a while and things didn’t work out very well.  I spent seventeen years in Napsbury from 1979, eighty, to 1997, seventeen years, and then finally one day I got my discharge and that made me happy.  I, I was coming here, to live here and then I was just happy, that I was going to leave hospital.  I didn’t like being in the mental hospital.  Lots of problems in mental hospitals.  There were eighteen men in a huge dormitory, eighteen men, most of them mentally sick men, mostly men who’d been in prison, who had mental health problems and it was really, really terrible, horrible, it was really upsetting.  So’
 
‘It sounds’
 
‘I could not, yes it was very upsetting, what I, what I’d been through, you know my two marriages, my two promotion, my two breakdowns, my admission in mental hospital, all those things had an affect on my brain, on my mind.’
 
‘It does sound very difficult.’
 
‘Sad, sad what’s happened yeah, but thank God I didn’t kill my wife, I was mentally ill but thank God I didn’t kill her.  It was very serious what I done to her.  I didn’t know what I was doing.  It was a moment of temporary insanity.  Those ECTs didn’t help me at all, the ECT, it made me worse.’
 
‘Maybe we can come back to that.’
 
‘Yes, yes.’
 
‘later on.’
 
‘OK.’
 
‘But I was just wondering if I can take you back, because from what you were saying just now.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘It sounded like your early life was actually quite happy.’
 
‘Happy, very happy.’
 
‘In Sri Lanka.’
 
‘Oh fantastic, yeah.’
 
‘What can you remember about life in Sri Lanka.’
 
‘Oh.  I went to school, joining the cadets, the cadets, senior cadets, joining the cadets, playing cricket, captain of the school team.’
 
[external noise and crackle on tape]
 
‘See, when did this interest,’
 
‘Wait a second.’
 
‘When did your interest in cricket start?’
 
‘At the age of twelve, from my early childhood, I captained the under-twelve team, under-fourteen team, under-sixteen team, second eleven and first eleven.  I was a dedicated cricketer.  All I wanted to do was play cricket well and succeed.’
 
‘Did your parents seem quite keen.’
 
‘They used to come and watch me play.  I’d a younger brother who played in the same team with me.  He was a very good cricketer as well, he was a bowler, left arm bowler and we were happy playing cricket together.  He was proud of me and I was proud of him.  So my early childhood was very exciting.’
 
‘Were there just the two of you?’
 
‘Yes, two of us another sister as well and an elder brother.  My sister in, Sydney now in Australia and my older brother died last year from heart trouble, had a heart attack and died, my older brother.  So I was a very happy child.’
 
‘Were you, were you living in a town in Sri Lanka.’
 
‘In Columbo, in a house, Columbo capital of Sri Lanka, just near the sea.  I used to go swimming every Sunday with my Alsation dog.  I had some good fun with him.’
 
‘What was his name?’
 
‘Ceasar.  My Alsation dog.  I used to take him swimming, I used to throw the ball into the sea, tennis ball, and he would go and pick it up in his mouth and bring it back to me.  Oh I loved him so much my dog, I had a very good childhood, very exciting childhood.’
 
‘What were your mum and dad like?’
 
‘The were very close to me, they, I was, I was so spoilt by them.  They gave me everything I wanted to do with my cricket. they knew I loved cricket, they paid for all my, my, my cricket gear, that’s before I started working and they came to see me play every weekend, and that would make, that was very good, I was very happy.  So my childhood was fine.’
 
‘Can you tell me a bit about, you said you lived in the town, but near the sea.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘What was your house like?’
 
‘Oh it was a big house, big house, four, four bedrooms, big sitting room, dining room, kitchen, back garden, front garden.  I used, I used to have lots of pets in the house, my dog, my squirrel.’
 
‘Squirrel?’
 
‘Squirrel, my parrot, had a parrot, and pigeons, pigeons.’
 
‘Really.’
 
‘So as a youngster I, I had lots of pets in the house.’
 
‘Was it just you that like the pets or did the rest of them?’
 
‘No, the whole family, the whole family, but I’m the one who really took, took to having the pets, responsible for having them.  They all, they were all happy, my sister and my brother, they liked it.  So my childhood was very good.
 
‘What did you, what did you, you told me you used to go to the sea.’
 
‘That’s right.’
 
‘For your entertainment and you used to play cricket.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
“What other kind of things did you do in Sri Lanka?  Sort of for your leisure.’
 
‘Going, going to the pictures, quite regularly, I used to see films.’
 
‘What kind of films did you.’
 
‘Westerns, and musical, I used to like musicals.’
 
‘Would they be English films?’
 
‘English films yes, English films.  There were lots of cinemas in Columbo, so I would watch picture about three or four times a week.’
 
‘Three or four times a week?’
 
‘Week, yes, different theatres, different pictures, my, I was very keen on pictures and then I started playing karam did, do you play karam in India.  I was a good karam player, it was another one of my hobbies, I used to be very good, I score at that.  I was very good.’
 
‘Brilliant.’
 
‘So I had lots of interests when I was young and then unfortunately for me my, my, my trip to England, I didn’t know it was going to happen when I came to England.  I came to better myself and start a new life although I did miss Sri Lanka, being in Sri Lanka very much, I cried a little bit when I, when I saw the lights when the ship moved away from Columbo at night time, I cried a little bit, looking out at the lights in the harbour and I said ‘oh God I’m leaving my country, I hope to God I, I’m going to something better.’  So I came for a better life in England to look for a job and do well and be happy.’
 
‘Let’s come back to that in a minute.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Because that’s the really
 
‘Yes’
 
‘crucial time’
 
‘Yes, yes’
 
‘for you I think.’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘ I just, I was interested in what you were saying about school, that you neglected your studies’
 
‘I did’
 
‘because of the cricket.’
 
‘Cricket, yes.’
 
‘I mean, was there anything you liked at school, apart from cricket, any subject?’
 
‘I did like, English language, and history and geography, but  I did do a bit of Latin and Greek which I wasn’t very good at, and Singhalese was very difficult, I couldn’t, couldn’t do my Singhalese, very well.’
 
‘Did, did you have your schooling in English?’
 
‘English yeah, yes.  It was in English yes.’
 
‘And what language did you speak at home?’
 
‘English, a little bit of Singhalese, not very good, not very good.’
 
‘So mostly?’
 
‘But  mostly English, mostly English, with my mum and dad and the rest of the family.’
 
‘Right, so your reading and writing was in’
 
‘Yeah, English, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Right, right.’
 
‘So I was, I was in a way very happy and I was’
 
‘Did you have, did you have many friends?’
 
‘I did, lots of friends, mostly creating friend, some very in, influential people, people who are really high up in, in, in the world.  I knew them very well, I got on so well with everybody that I was really happy as a child, until the age of about ninet, nineteen, and then also when I started work at the age of nineteen.  My first job was exciting.  It was a tea taster job, which was considered pretty good job.’
 
‘How did you get that job?’
 
‘An employee of the company saw, saw my photograph in the papers and he came to see and said ‘I hear you are a good cricketer, I read about your, your cricket’ and he said ‘Do you want a job in the company I work for? would you like to join us?’  So I said ‘Oh yes, I’d like to start work now, I’m finished at school I’d like to start work.  So he very kindly helped me write out a job application, I wrote out an application for the job and I got the job as a temporary clerk and I was so happy when I got my first pay packet.  I, I bought my mum some nice presents, my dad some present and I had money in my pocket.  I was working now and I was happy.’
 
‘Brilliant.’
 
‘So that was great, that was for two years.’
 
‘And he didn’t mi, do you, I mead did you have any qualifications?’
 
‘I had just five ‘O’ level that’s all, not very good, five ‘O’ levels’
 
‘Right’
 
‘ Just average.’
 
‘And, but the Tea Company was happy.’
 
‘The Tea Company was happy, very good, very good.   I’ll’
 
‘What were you doing there, in the Tea Company?’
 
‘I was tea, tasting tea and, and they, they used to export tea to England and, and, a countries around the, Arabian countries.  We used to export tea, and I, I used to taste tea and, and, I used to say bokernoise[ph], pick or fendi[ph] the grade of the tea.  I studied what the grade of the tea and it’s quite exciting, so I did enjoy working in Sri Lanka, and then my, the trouble started I think, things were getting out of hand.  They used to have curfew you had to be indoors at six o’clock in the evening.  Soldiers marching a, a, around Colombo, lots of soldiers on the streets, with guns and we all had to be indoors by six o’clock in the evening, which was terrible for us.’
 
‘Could you just tell me a little bit about what that trouble was about?’
 
‘Politics, do it, do it, do it between the Tamil and the Singhalese.  The Tamils were fighting for independence.  They wanted the northern states the free northern states to be free and the Government wouldn’t allow it.  The Singhalese Government wouldn’t allow it, and then trouble broke out, and there was lots and lots of trouble.  People were being killed and then it really got out of hand and my parents were getting really fed up.’
 
‘So the soldiers who were’
 
‘The soldiers’
 
‘were the Government soldiers?’
 
‘Yes, they used to walk, walk along the streets.  Anybody who was seen on the streets after six o’clock could, could have been shot, it was very dangerous going out after six. So we stayed indoors for, for, for, about six months, after six you were always at home indoors.’
 
‘Were there other effects of the war, war, like did you have problems with getting food or anything else?’
 
‘Oh yes, yes there was problem, they used to ration food, they used to ration food and things did get a bit, bit tough for us.  So my mum and dad did make a decision about leaving, and the, the, all the children were consulted and we all said yes, we would like to leave Sri Lanka, and I either go to England or Australia.’
 
‘How, how old were you then?
 
‘Then, just, twenty-one.’
 
‘And how old was the youngest one in the family?’
 
‘He’s two years younger than me so he was nineteen, Russell.’
 
‘So you were all grown up?’
 
‘Yes, we all grown up, yes.  He didn’t do well in his studies either, was like me, very keen on cricket.  So my childhood was very exciting, very good, but unfortunately for all the problems in Sri Lanka we had to leave.’
 
‘It sounds like everything changed.’
 
‘It did, yes, that’s right, big change, yes.’
 
‘So how did your parents decide England or Australia?’
 
‘They asked the children and I, I’d heard so much about England that England would be the best place to go to, to come and live, and most of the, other members of the family said yes, England, and it’s strange now cos my sister and brother are now in Australia and I’m the only one in England.  My mum and dad are dead.  I lost my other brother last year.  So I’m the only one in the family who’s in England now.  I love England so much but I had a few bad experiences in my job and my marriages, my two marriages.’
 
‘Let’s see’
 
‘Very sad experiences.’
 
‘Let’s, let’s come back to your first’
 
‘Marriage?’
 
‘You’re, you’re in Sri Lanka, you’re in Columbo and your parents are discussing about you coming to England.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘What did you think England was going to be like?’
 
‘I was quite excited.  I said ‘What’s the news in’, England it was a treat to us to see the news, on the screen, and I thought ‘Oh England must be lovely, must be a very beautiful country to live in.’
 
‘What did you think you would see?’
 
‘I was so keen on sport, I could watch, play cricket, watch football, rugby, tennis.  I was so mad about sport, I was sports fanatic.  So I thought England would be the best place to come to, and my parents thought so as well.  So we did come to England in fifty-eight.’
 
‘Did you have any idea of what you would, you know, you as a young man, would do when you got to England in terms of work.’
 
‘I, I really wanted to be a professional cricketer, but suddenly, I, don’t know, I just changed my mind, I thought I’d play club cricket and apply for a clerical job somewhere.  Which I did and I was taken on straight away.’
 
‘Right, so, can you remember about making your preparations to come to England?’
 
‘Yeah, yes, we were so excited.  We bought lots and lots of clothes.  My mum and dad spent quite a lot of money on the family with the fares, but, the fares to England.  We came by boat, by ship.  It was fantastic.  Three weeks it took from Columbo to Southampton and we had a great time.  Lots and lots of Australian and New Zealanders on, on ship.  We had, we had some good fun on the ship, dancing at night, tombola, swimming, in the swimming pool 2 o’clock in the morning.  Three weeks, great, great holiday and then I came to England it was a bit cold.  I thought ‘Oh dear me.  It’s a bit nippy here.’  and I was a bit, bit worried about the winter, but we didn’t have very seri, severe winter in fifty-eight.’
 
‘What time of the year did you come here?’
 
‘September.  September, just near, near the end of the English summer.’
 
‘Right, at, at that time were there quite a few people coming from Sri Lanka to England?’
 
‘Yes, yes, yes, quite a, quite a lot of people.  People I knew as well.  People, friends of mine, came to England, as well.  So I had lots of friends in England.’
 
‘So this is quite an adventure for you.’
 
‘Yeah, it was yes.’
 
‘to come here’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘What were your first impressions when you got off the boat, can you remember?’
 
‘Oh, I was, I was so excited to be in a new country, new surrounding, new change, changes for me.  I was very excited and I was looking forward to spending many years in England and to be happy in England.  I do love England very much.  I really do.  I think it’s a great country.’
 
‘What, what arrangements had your parents made about where they would live when they come here?’
 
‘Oh they wrote to a relative, my brother’s, sorry my father’s brother was in England, father’s brother and he put us up for a few, few months, and then my father bought a house in London in Cricklewood, and then, my father bought a house, and we moved in.’
 
‘Were, were your parents quite well off then?’
 
‘Yes they were quite well off, yeah.  My father was an engine driver in Sri Lanka.  He liked his job very much.  He was, class one engine driver.  He got very, very good pay and he was very good to his children, to all of us.’
 
‘And when you left Sri Lanka was he able to bring his money out with him?’
 
‘He was, yeah, all of it.  Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘So they, he bought a house in London and what did he, what did, was he working, your father?’
 
‘He was retired.’
 
‘He was retired.  What about, what about you children?’
 
‘My children,’
 
‘No, ‘
 
‘Oh the children, the children.’
 
‘you four?’
 
‘My older brother was a hotel manager, the one who died last year, he was the manager of a hotel in London, Aspen Hotel, he was doing very well.  My younger brother joined the post office and my sister, sister took up teaching.  So it was quite exciting.  We all had jobs.  We were all ok.’
 
‘Did, did you have problems finding those jobs or was it fairly’
 
‘No, I got, I got my job quite easily.  There was a cousin of mine worked for the company I joined, a cousin of mine, and he helped me get the job, he, he came see me and asked me if I would like to work for the company and I said ‘Yes I’d love to’ and he, he helped me get the job.  There was no problems.’
 
‘And that was quite soon after you came here?’
 
‘Yes I was a bit nervous starting work in England, first time, I thought ‘Oh dear will I, will I be able to hold the job.  I hope I can.’   But it didn’t take me long.’
 
‘Did they train, did they give you training?’
 
‘They, they trained me in the, I had three weeks training, then I took up work.  I found it very exciting, very easy, I used to do a lot of figure work, which I like.  I’m not a very good letter writer, I take long time writing letters, but figure work I, I really excelled in.  I like figure work and most of my work was to do with figures.  So I did settle down nicely and that and I never ever dreamt that I would be promoted twice in my job.  I never thought I would be.  I was just an unassuming happy clerical officer doing clerical work.  Then, two promotions came up and that, that brought all my problems all mental health problems.’
 
‘So.’
 
‘So I’m not blaming my boss for what’s happened, I don’t blame him, blame him.  Unfortunately he died a few years ago, my boss, but I do have memories of him I, sometime I, I do think about him sometime.’
 
‘Was he an English man?’
 
‘He was an Englishman, very clever man he was, brilliant man and I liked him very much, and I don’t hold anything against him for what happened to me.  He must have thought I was good in my job to promote me, but unfortunately it didn’t work out well, both, both times I had breakdowns.’
 
‘The thing is you never know what’s going to happen.’
 
‘That’s right, nobody can tell, no-one can tell.  I didn’t, I didn’t think I would get ill mentally.’
 
‘It’s interesting though you were saying that you were just an unassuming clerical worker.’
 
‘Oh, yes.’
 
‘So as far as your job went you weren’t very ambitious?
 
‘No I wasn’t.’
 
‘But as far as your cricketing went
 
‘Yes I was.’
 
‘you were very ambitious.’
 
‘Yes I was.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘What happened to that when you came to England, what happened?’
 
‘I joined, I joined a club in Harrow and I started playing club cricket.  I changed my mind about playing professional cricket.  I started playing cricket in Harrow, the Middlesex area, around Middlesex, and I doing quite well until I had my accident.’
 
‘What happened?’
 
‘My thumb, the ball, a West Indian bowler broke my thumb, fast bowler, and then I had a fractured cheek bone and a fractured nose but I got new glasses and that helped me a great deal so I was ok after that.’
 
‘So’
 
‘No more accidents.’
 
‘So you got the injuries because your sight’
 
‘Sight, eyesight, yes.’
 
‘wasn’t very good, right.  And did you continue to play cricket?’
 
‘I did, yes, I did.  I love cricket so much.  I wish I could still play.’
 
‘And was your younger brother playing?’
 
‘He was good as, we played in the same game, here.  He’s happily married in Australia.  I went to Australia for a holiday about seventeen years ago.  I got leave from hospital and I spent a six months holiday in Australia, which, did, was a good thing I did.  I was so happy there, I had a holiday.’
 
‘That sounds exciting.’
 
‘Yeah.  Australia a nice country, very warm.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘ Very warm.  Plus the sport in Australia, like England and some nice people the Australians, very friendly.  So I was happy there.  I had a holiday there.’
 
‘That sounds good.’
 
‘But my childhood was really exciting.’
 
‘It sounds exciting.’
 
‘I used, I used to wear my school blazer, my flannel trousers, my, my, my shirt, cricket shirt, silk shirt, I used to wear silk shirts for the heat, with all the heat and I was very happy for many years.  From the age of about thirteen, twelve to nineteen, seven years of real happiness.’
 
‘And then, when you came to England you said that you were quite sad at leav, leaving Sri Lanka.’
 
‘I was yes.  I thought I miss my cricket so much you see.  I missed my job in Sri Lanka, and, and, and my cricket, but again I thought to myself they couldn’t live in a Country with all this political trouble.  It’s just getting out of hand, tings, we didn’t feel safe in Sri Lanka.  We thought we might be killed one day and we, it was really scary when, when trouble broke out so my parents decided they had to leave Sri Lanka, we had to go somewhere.’
 
‘What about the people you were
 
‘People’
 
‘leaving behind and were they’
 
‘Quite friendly, I miss them, all my cricketting friends and my close relatives.’
 
‘Cos, what, what relatives were you leaving behind?’
 
‘My uncles, aunts, cousins, quite a lot, family members, very close to my mum and dad.  My dad had five brothers and my mum had four brothers and two sister and we used to visit them regularly.  We used to go see them quite often.  My father had a nice car and he used to drive us to, in the evenings, just visiting the family, members of the family.  So it was quite exciting.’
 
‘So leaving Sri Lanka was quite’
 
‘Sad for me.’
 
‘Sad, but also it sounds like you were very excited underneath that about coming to England.’
 
‘Yeah, that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘So, a bit of a mixture?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘How did you find, what differences did you find between living in, when, once you’d moved into the house in Cricklewood.  How was your life different here than it had been in Sri Lanka?’
 
‘Oh, it changed so much.  All, all the people I left in Sri Lanka, I was worried about them.  I thought oh why don’t most of them will leave Sri Lanka as well.  Because it was so upsetting, problems in Sri Lanka and when I came to England everything was nice, until, until I started, until I started work.  I was happy with my parents and then I applied for the job and my parents were happy that I was going to be a civil servant.  I joined the Civil Service and then I started working and they were so happy for me and they still came to see me play cricket, in England.  So my life changed, quite a lot, but I was still doing the same things I loved, clerical work job in my job and playing cricket.  Which was just what I wanted.  I didn’t want to be a big shot in this world, I didn’t want to be big shot.  I just happy with being a part and playing cricket.’
 
‘And did you find that, because you said when you were in Sri Lanka you found it very easy to make friends, ‘
 
‘Friends, yes.’
 
‘You had lots of friends.  Did you find that the same in England?’
 
‘Yes, yes.  I made lots of cricketting friends.  I had three Sri Lankans play in the same team as me, three Sri Lankans [pause]  one guy was fantastic, he was a better cricketer, better cricketer than me.  We were very close in the cricket team and we used to always get together in the middle, we used to bat together and talk to each other when used, when we used to run.  After every over we used to have a chat and discuss tactics.  So it was quite exciting.’
 
‘Brilliant.’
 
‘But I did, I did like coming to England, I liked it here.  I was sad to leave Sri Lanka but I couldn’t live with all, we couldn’t live with all the problems there.  it was really scary for us.’
 
‘And did you manage, did you make friends with English people as well as.’
 
‘I did yes, I did, very soon.  I found English people very helpful.  If ever I got lost, asked people for help and they were always kind and gave you directions about getting places, and then I wanted to buy a car, that’s after a few years working, I want to buy a car and start driving and then I failed my driving test and I just packed it, I packed it in, I didn’t, I didn’t drive again. I used to travel to work by, by tube and bus.’
 
‘Where, were, were you working in London?’
 
‘In London, in London, near the Houses of Parliament, Westminster, a big office, very big office.’
 
‘And how did you travel to work?
 
‘By bus, tube and bus.  I used to travel on the Bakerloo line from Dollis, from Cricklewood to Westminster and then I used to take the bus to the office.  Quite easy, no problem.’
 
‘What time did you start in the morning?’
 
‘Nine o’clock in the morning to five o’clock in the evening.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘But after my promotion, I took promotion, I used to put in an hour’s overtime every evening.  I used to, so I can catch up with my work.  So I worked during, an hour’s overtime every evening and I didn’t manage it, but, that really got me down and I started taking sick leave and getting ill.’
 
‘What, what, what’
 
‘That’s what it was, it was affecting me.’
 
‘Can you remember what was that’
 
‘Caus, causing me a great deal of stress, being a manager of people.  I had six people working under me and I, I kept going, and thinking, Oh God I’m not doing well in my job.  My, people who worked under me were not doing right as well.  They were making mistakes, I was trying to correct their mistakes and the work started piling up on me, and I started taking sick leave, too much stress.’
 
‘Was there anybody above you that you could discuss it ‘
 
‘I did, I did talk to my, my deputy boss.  I spoke to him and he told me, ‘Stop moaning, try, try and do my job and stop worrying.’  He knew I was a bit of a worrier, but we, unfortunately didn’t turn out very well.  I had a breakd, first breakdown, I had my first breakdown.  Eight years later I had my second breakdown.’
 
‘On that first breakdown.’
 
‘First breakdown yeah.’
 
‘What used to happen then, I mean was it that you would wake up in the morning’
 
‘That’s right.’
 
‘ and be unable to face’
 
‘That’s right, yes.  Oh, dreadful, dreadful feeling, didn’t want to go work, scared, scared that I might have a bad day.  Feeling worried, how I could manage my staff, how I could, make them, happy, and make them, do their work well and me be in charge of them.  All those things used to  affect me, and then just one day I just cracked up.’
 
‘Were you able to talk to anybody at home about it?’
 
‘I did yes, my parents, my parents and, friends of mine, I used to talk to friends of mine about it.  My cousin, who got me the job, he used to come and see me,  Milroy[ph] he’s Sri Lankan friend.  He was, he was very concerned about me, not just once but twice.’
 
‘So people around you knew that ‘
 
‘Yes they knew.’
 
‘something was going wrong.’
 
‘Yes they knew yeah.’
 
‘And were your parents quite supportive to you?’
 
‘They were yes, they were.  Very supportive.  My mum was very very close to me she was, gave me 100 per cent support.  She was so concerned when I started taking sick leave.’  I, I was just scared to go to work, but as a clerk I, I love going to work.  I was so happy going to work as a clerk.  I had no problem whatsoever.’
 
‘And it was?’
 
‘I really did my job there as a clerk, but not as an executive, I couldn’t cope.’
 
‘With that responsibility?’[both speak together]
 
‘Yes, that’s right, managing people, I couldn’t do it.’
 
‘It’s a very difficult job.’
 
‘Stressful job, yes,  high executive officer.  You’ve got to be very excellent in your work to be a good executive.’
 
‘Can, can you remember how did you used to, I mean did you get any physical feelings of stress?’
 
‘Sometimes, yes.  I used to get pains in my chest, and difficulty in breathing, taking sick leave, anxiety.  Most of my medical certificates said I was suffering from anxiety.  Then I started getting pains in my chest and I thought that I might have a heart attack and die.  I used to take, I, I used to have all morbid thoughts about my illness.  Scared of having a heart attack and dying and I, I was in a really bad state when I had my got, when I had my first breakdown.’
 
‘And had you been to the GP?’
 
‘I had been yeah, I seen my doctor every week, quite regularly, quite regularly.’
 
‘What did he?’
 
‘and he told, he told me I was under a lot of stress and he was giving me medication, treatment, tablets.’
 
‘Do you know what they were?’
 
‘Valium, I was taking lots of Valium.  That, this was many years ago.  They don’t give Valium so much now, but I was on Valium and some other stuff.’
 
‘Did that, did that help you?’
 
‘A little bit, not much.  I couldn’t sleep, I was suffering from insomnia, couldn’t sleep.  Same, same problems, scared to go work, worried about what day I’d have at work, about putting an hour’s overtime, I spent a long day ahead of me, nine hours instead of eight hours and all those things go on top of me and I was feeling miserable.  So basically my job was the problem I had.  My true problem which was in my job.  Those are all my problems I had at work.’
 
‘When, when you were on your sick leave did you just used to stay in the house?’
 
‘I did, yes, stay in my room and my mum used to come and see me, bring me coffee, make my lunch, make my dinner.  I just wanted to be left alone in my room.’
 
‘So you wouldn’t even go down in the sitting room?’
 
‘I wouldn’t stop playing cricket for a little while I was so worried I had to stop playing cricket in the summer.  I spent a lot of time in my room worrying, thinking what, what would happen to me and then I got upset, I had no idea what schizophrenia was like until I was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.  I was diagnosed in St. Bernard’s and Napsbury, and I didn’t  like being a schizophrenic, I didn’t like the word schizophrenia, mental illness.  It affected me a great deal, I was very frightened of my illness.  I kept telling everybody that I my illness would kill me one day, that I would die from schizophrenia and I had a phobia of being dead soon, about dying. The way I experienced schizophrenia for many years, both, twice.  So I was worried there, I was worried.’
 
‘Is sounds very, sounds very very difficult situation.’
 
‘I know, it’s a worrying illness, very worrying illness.’
 
‘And, it sounds as if it was your life suddenly became completely different.’
 
‘Changed, that’s right, yes.’
 
‘From being a happy carefree’
 
‘From happy, that’s right, that’s right, to something really unhappy, miserable.’
 
‘Was there anything that helped you at that time that you can remember.’
 
‘I’d support from mum and dad, my mum was very supportive, she was very helpful and she told me not to worry about being a schizophrenic, she said, ‘Lots of, there are lots of schizophrenics in the world about one in four or five people suffer from schiz, mental illness some time in their lives and have to be admitted into a mental hospital.  So don’t worry, don’t think you’re going to die, but I’ll look after you, you’re not going to die you’re going to be all right.’  I kept telling her every day ‘I’m going to die.’  That’s all I ever told her and she told me ‘Don’t worry you’re receiving treatment, you’re going to be all right again, so don’t worry about dying I’ll look after you, nothing going to happen to you.’  She didn’t want me to die, or to get seriously ill.’
 
‘She sounds wonderful.’
 
‘Yeah, I miss her very much, oh yes, she died ten years ago.’
 
‘But for her to be able’
 
‘Yes’
 
‘to accept that illness,’
 
‘That’s right, yes’
 
‘and to also be able to support you through it.’
 
‘Oh yes, that’s right.’
 
‘Is very special I think.’
 
‘I started reading, reading books about schizophrenia and it scared me.  I went to the library and I bought, got some books on schizophrenia.  I shouldn’t have read that, it scared me a great deal.  I, I, after a while I just stop, stopped reading them.’
 
‘Was that when you went to St. Bernard’s that you were diagnosed or was it your GP?’
 
‘Yes, St. Bernard’s.’
 
‘Right, so had did that happen, how did you get to St. Bernard’s?’
 
‘After my breakdown, after my breakdown, my wife told me, she can’t cope with me and wanted me to go into St. Bernard’s.’
 
‘Right, let, let, let’s go back to the first, to the first, ‘
 
‘Yeah’
 
‘to the first breakdown.’
 
‘Yea, yeah.’
 
‘So you, you went off sick for quite a long time.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘And then what happened?  Then you got yourself back to work?’
 
‘I got back to work after my first wife’s death.  I took sick leave and went to Sri Lanka and my first wife died in Sri Lanka.’
 
‘Right, let’s, let’s, shall we, just go back a bit.’
 
‘Yeah’
 
‘So you were, you were taking sick leave from work?’
 
‘Work, yes.’
 
‘You were at home and staying in your room.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Then what happened? [Pause} Then you met your wife?’
 
‘I was seeing my doctor and psychiatrist.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘And they recommended, sorry, I didn’t go into St. Bernard’s first time, sorry, second time and’
 
‘Right.  Let’s talk about first time then’
 
‘Yes.  I saw my doctor and my psychiatrist and they recommended that I be demoted in my job.  They said clearly he’s not happy in his job, he wants to be demoted, and both of them wrote letters to my employers and my boss got the letters and he was quite happy to demote me.  He said ‘That’s fine for me.’  I, I, I was demoted and then I picked up very well.’
 
‘Did, did you, when you were demoted, you were ok with that, you didn’t feel it was a loss of’
 
‘I, I… for a while I did.  I thought I was losing extra money, extra leave, and I thought, ‘oh dear me, it’s a big step down to be demoted from executive back to clerk.’  It, I was a bit, bit of, bit of ashamed of myself.  I thought people might laugh at me and think I’m an absolute idiot or fool, but after a while it didn’t worry me so much, I was really too, only too glad to settle down in my job as a clerk and be happy, which I was.’
 
‘That must have taken some courage, ‘
 
‘It took lots’
 
for you to go back into ‘
 
‘Yes, that’s right.’
 
‘that situation at a lower position.’
 
‘Yes, yeah.’
 
‘That’s’
 
‘Yes’
 
‘ a courageous step.’
 
‘That’s right, yes, and I, and I get so upset when I think about second demotion and the same illness.’
 
‘Well let’s, let’s, let’s keep going on with, so you went back and you were demoted.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘and you carried on your clerical work,’
 
‘That’s right, yes.’
 
‘and you settled again?’
 
‘Oh very well.’
 
‘No, no problems? ‘
 
‘No problem, no problem at all.  I had every, all my work well organised.  I was always up to date in my job, in my work, never in arrears, never in trouble, so I must have picked up very well to get promoted a second time.’
 
‘Did anybody treat you differently, because you’d had stress related illness’
 
‘A few friends used to take the Mickey, a few friends, in the office.  They used to just crack joke.’
 
‘How did you cope?’
 
‘I, I didn’t mind, I used to laugh at it, I used to just laugh, and didn’t take it very seriously.’
 
‘So you managed ’
 
‘Yeah, I managed.’
 
‘all that?’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.  OK.  And then you were telling me before that you met your wife?’
 
‘I met my second wife in London, at a dance.’
 
‘What about your first wife?’
 
‘My first wife was Sri Lankan, she came to live next to my, my dad’s house.  I never met her in Sri Lanka, I met her in England for the first time, and she, she was living next to my mum and dad’s house.  I knew her parents very well, but I’d never known her, because I’d never met her.  I’d heard, I’d heard of her parents.  Her father was managing director of the Times Newspaper.  He was a very big shot, was a great man, and we became good friends, then after a while I fell in love with her, fell in love with her.’
 
‘Was she?’
 
‘This, this is my first wife I’m talking about.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘My first wife.’
 
‘What was her name?’
 
‘Doris, Nelson, Doris Nelson, and then I proposed to her and I was a bit nervous when I went to ask her dad permission to marry her.  Oh he was so good, he came put his arm round me and said he was so happy for me and her.  He gave his consent, and we had a big wedding at Westminster Cathedral, a very big wedding and reception in a hotel in London, big hotel.  So my first marriage was very happy.’
 
‘And she was a Catholic as well?’
 
‘Roman Catholic as well, yes, like me.’
 
‘And, had you both come from Columbo?’
 
‘Yes, that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Is she?’
 
‘I had a child by her, we had,  a girl by her, Michelle.’
 
‘So what, what year did you get married?’
 
‘1962.’
 
‘So just a few, about four years after you came here.’
 
‘Yes, that’s right, yeah, and then I got promoted in sixty-four.’
 
‘Right.  What, what were those first couple of years of being married like and where did you live?’
 
‘Oh happy, happy, I was so happy.  Very happy I was, I thought I was in the prime of my life.  I’d married, my wife was expecting a baby after a year.  I was so happy to look forward to the birth of my first child.  I was happy in my job as a clerk.  I was playing cricket.  Everything was just perfect for me.’
 
‘So you were still playing cricket after you got married?’
 
‘Still play cricket, oh yeah, my wife used to come and watch me play, she loved cricket herself, I got her interested.  I was so happy yeah.’
 
‘And did you have your own house, or your own?’
 
‘We had our own house yes, yes.’
 
Where was that?’
 
‘Oh, sorry, it wasn’t a house, it was a flat in Willesden, I moved into a flat in Willesden  and then, just before I remarried a second time I bought a house in Harrow, I bought a house.  My father left me some money you see, when he died, he left the family some money.  My mum gave me quite a lot of money to buy this house of mine, and I remarried in seventy-four.’
 
‘Right, just, just going back to, to you and Doris in that flat in Willesden, so you were very happy there, you were going to work.’
 
‘That’s right.’
 
‘Things seemed fine.’
 
‘Fine, yes, absolutely fine.’
 
‘Then you were saying before that things started going wrong again.’
 
‘Yes because of my promotion in my job a second time, second promotion.  The same experience I had, just the same.  I kept saying ‘Oh God what’s happened to my job now, what’s happened to my marriages, my two marriages, what’s going to happen to me?’   So all, all my problems started with my jobs, with my promotion in my two jobs.’
 
‘When your boss said to you about the promotion, the second time.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘How did you feel?  Did you, were you a bit worried about that.’
 
‘I was, I was a bit worried.  I was too scared to turn it down.  I, I kept thinking that I, I might be, I would be ashamed of myself if I turned it down.  He’s offering me more money, more leave, better prospects.  He’s offering all these things to me, how can I turn it down?  So I accepted it and I didn’t know the consequences.  I had no idea what was going to happen.’
 
‘And then, how long after?’
 
‘About two years.  It started again, the problem, mental problem, taking sick leave, anxiety.’
 
‘The same sort of symptoms?’
 
‘Same thing, same problem.’
 
‘And, you had people that you were managing as well at work?’
 
‘Yeah, I was, that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘And they were concerned about me.  Then I call asked my boss come and see me, I heard my boss say ‘Is he dead?’ my boss thought I were dead and I didn’t like it, I was a bit upset.  He thought I was dead.  I was on the floor, I fell from my chair onto the ground and they called him and he came to see me and he thought I was dead and that, that upset me a great deal.  I, I’ve suffered from depression for many years, depression.  It’s gets me down sometimes, depression.  You know, the loss of my first wife, my first promotion, my demotion, then my second marriage, then shortly after that, my second promotion, then the incident with my wife because of my mental illness and her provocation, and me doing a long prison sentence which I thought wasn’t right.  I, I was very upset when the Judge sentenced me to prison.  I really felt strongly that my wife was to blame partly for what happened.  She provoked me when I was ill.  I had no idea what I was doing to her.  I was after ECT and I thought the Judge would spare me and confine me to a mental hospital for, for, for treatment.’
 
‘It sounds like that was a’
 
‘I was so unhappy.’
 
‘But, so, so many things were going on all at the same time.’
 
‘Yes, that’s right, my world was collapsing around me, everything was collapsing.’
 
[cameraman said they would have to change the tape]
 
‘OK Ken, we’re going to stop for a bit.’
 
‘Stop.’
 
‘Yeah, just going to stop.’
 
[End of DVCPro Tape 1 – VHS Tape 1 continues]

 
 
[Start of DVCPro Tape 2]
 
‘I don’t want that, I don’t want that, I don’t want that, I don’t want that, I don’t want to sue anybody.’
 
‘Ok.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Right, Ken let’s, did you, we finished up and you were telling me how you collapsed at work.’
 
‘At my desk, yes.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘I was writing a letter in my job and I was feeling bad, my head was hurting, I had a headache and I started worrying.  I wanted a drink of water, which I got, from my opposite number, my other executive got me some water and I said ‘I’m not feeling very well, and he told me to go to the rest room and have a rest but I didn’t want to leave my desk, although I felt a bit ill, bit bad.  Then all of my sudden my, I, I just don’t know what, what, the pen, the pen flew out of my hand and I fell on, on to the floor, off my seat on to the floor on the left hand side, I was lying on the floor for a while.  I had my breakdown and that had a very serious effect on me.’
 
‘So you, you said you heard the, your boss saying ‘
 
‘Yes, he ‘Is he all right?  Is he dead?’
 
‘Right, so you didn’t lose consciousness?’
 
‘and I didn’t lose consciousness, no, no, I was just feeling miserable, on the floor, with my, with my breakdown, and they did rush me to Westminster Hospital.  They thought I might have had a heart attack.  So I was examined in Westminster Hospital and they said, ‘No heart trouble, no heart trouble, your heart is perfect but you have had a breakdown.’  and he said ‘You should go home, have some sick leave, go home, you’re not in a fit state to continue, and I went home, and then my darling wife she had no more seeing me.  She couldn’t cope with me, she didn’t want , want to know me because I was mentally ill.’
 
‘Hang on, this is your second wife?’
 
‘Second wife, yes, second wife yeah.’
 
‘Right.  There’s a little bit missing in the middle here, because ‘
 
‘Oh I have had two breakdowns, yes.’
 
‘Yeah, because you, you were talking to me before about your, you’d got married to your first wife.’
 
‘First wife yes.’
 
‘You were living in the flat in Willesden.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Right.  So then what happened after that, after you, you were living in the flat in Willesden.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘You went back to work.’
 
‘I went back to work, I was demoted.’
 
‘Yeah, and then, when did your wife die, your first wife?’
 
‘1966.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Two years after my promotion.  She died.  Because I did take sick leave and go to Sri Lanka and she collapsed with a heart attack and died from, after an attack of asthma there.  She was an asthmatic.  She was, she was very young when she died.  [loud sigh]  So I’ve had problems in, in my job and marriages.’
 
‘Yes.  When you decided to go back to Sri Lanka, you’d been having some sick leave.’
 
‘I wanted to run away from my job that is real, the real reason why I went back.  I couldn’t stand being mentally ill.  I couldn’t stand it,  it was having a very serious effect on me and I said to myself I want a holiday and I don’t know, I might not never come back to my job in England again, it’s getting on top of me, it’s worrying me, I can’t do it.  I can’t cope with mental illness, it’s having a serious effect on me.’
 
[sound of something falling]
 
‘Was your wife?’
 
‘Oh sorry, sorry Ken, this thing, it came off’
 
[cameraman - ‘OK’]
 
‘Sorry, sorry.’
 
[cameraman - ‘no problem’ sound of microphone being re-positioned - ‘there you are’]
 
‘Thanks.’
 
[cameraman - ‘OK’]
 
‘Thanks Ken.’
 
‘Was your wife, in agreement to go back to Sri Lanka?’
 
‘She was, yes.  She knew I was suffering from an illness, mental illness.’
 
‘How, how did she cope?’
 
‘Both my wives knew I was suffering from mental illness.’
 
‘How did, how did Doris cope with that?’
 
‘Oh, she had problems.’ [noise of plane?]  She was more understanding than my second wife.  She had problems with me and she was concerned, my first wife, but she never nagged me like, like the way my second wife nagged me.’
 
‘And she also had a little baby?’
 
‘She had a little baby yes, that’s right, Michelle.’
 
‘And Michelle was born in?’
 
‘Sixty-four, just before my second promotion.  I married in sixty-two and Michelle was born in sixty-four and then shortly after her birth I, I got my promotion, first promotion, and then I started getting ill.  So she was quite young when her mum died, whey my wife died, my first wife.  She was only two, and I thought ‘Oh, how can I look after my daughter, I need help, I need for somebody to look after her.’ and my mum cabled me in Sri Lanka and said ‘Please accept our deepest sympathies at the loss of your wife.  Come back to England and we’ll look after you and, and Michelle.  I’ll bring up Michelle for you and you’ll be all right.’  And I was so grateful to my mum for that.  She really looked after my daughter for, for many years.’
 
‘You must have been completely devastated.’
 
‘I was, I was, yeah, I was.  I’ve had a very unhappy life in England, very unhappy and also very exciting at times before my promotions.  So the two things really that upset me in my life were my two promotions, in my job.  Nothing else.  I keep saying ‘If only my boss had left me alone, I would have been perfectly happy.’  I keep saying it over and over again in my mind.  My mind keeps saying ‘If only he’d left me alone without my second promotion I would have been so happy.  I would have been really happy in my life.  Now is too late.  My boss is dead.  I suffer from mental illness.  I’ve had breakdowns, I’ve had broken marriages and I’ve been unhappy for many years.  I suffer from depression now, not every day but sometimes, severe depression and now I have to look forward in my life.  I have tried to get jobs.  I’ve applied for job but nobody will employ me, I’ve been turned down.’
 
‘But you’ve had some very serious losses in your life ‘
 
‘I have.’
 
‘ as well, like your first wife dying.’
 
‘My first wife, then my dad.’
 
‘Yeah, your first wife must have been very, still young.’
 
‘Very young, very young.  She was, about twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-one I think yeah.’
 
‘And you were left with a two year old?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘To have responsibility for.’
 
‘That’s right.’
 
‘Which must have been very difficult when you were trying to cope with your own grief.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘So you came back to England and did you move in with your mum?
 
‘I did, I did.  She was so helpful, so supportive… I, I would have been lost without her.  I, I would, I would have had to go into hospital again if she didn’t promise to look after me and Michelle.  So.’
 
‘And she just did that automatically.’
 
‘Yeah, automatically, she was so love, lovely my mum, I loved her so much.  When she died I was broken-hearted.  I want to kill myself.  I wanted to commit suicide.  I’ve had suicidal thoughts in my mind for years, but I wouldn’t do it to me, I love my children, I love my kids and I’m not going to do anything silly.  I want to live for a few more years and be, try and find happiness again.  I’ve had years and years of unhappiness and, severe depression because of mental illness, but there are times when I am happy, I’m cheerful.  I talk with everybody here.  I go out quite a lot.  I meet friends.  I don’t spend my whole day in my room sulking, like I used to.  I like going out.  So there are times when I am a bit happier.  I feel’
 
‘Because you certainly seem to have your spirit still in you.’
 
‘Yes, yes that’s right yeah.  I’ve got a good heart.  [crackling]  I’d like to think so, I’d like to think so.’
 
‘So when you came ’
 
‘I know I done something wrong and that bugs me but it wasn’t me who done it, it wasn’t me, I’m not like that.  I could never harm or hurt any of, anybody.  My wife was the last person I would’ve wanted to hurt in my life because I loved her so much.  It was my mental illness, my insanity, my discharge from a mental hospital after ECT which made me worse.  If only they gave me some reasonable, some proper treatment nothing would have happened between me and my wife.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘I had to cook, I had to, I just don’t know what happened after ECT, I got worse.’
 
‘Let, let’s talk about the ‘
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘ECT and talk about St. Bernard’s a bit then.’
 
‘Yes, yeah.’
 
‘Because you came back from Sri Lanka with Michelle.’
 
‘Yeah, that’s right.’
 
‘Moved in with your mother.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Was your father still alive?’
 
‘He was alive yes.’
 
‘Right.  Then did you go back to work?’
 
‘I did.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘I did go back to work, and then I was demoted in my job.  I settled down very well.  I was so happy.’
 
‘So how did your get into, what happened to take you to St. Bernard’s?’
 
[Pause]  ‘Give me a minute to think.’
 
‘Yes, sure.’
 
‘I, I’m getting a bit mixed up now with my admissions, mental health hospital admissions.’
 
‘That’s ok.’
 
‘I was seeing a doctor and psychiatrist after my first breakdown and I must say I made a mistake, I told you something which, I made a bit of a mistake.  I didn’t go into a mental hospital after my first breakdown.  I went after my second breakdown.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Into St. Bernard’s.  I’m sorry I didn’t make myself so clear.’
 
‘That’s fine.’
 
‘I was admitted into St. Bernard’s after my second breakdown.’
 
‘And by this time your first, Doris had died?’
 
‘Died, yeah, and I was living with my mum and dad and then I remarried.  I met a lovely English girl, fell in love.’
 
‘Was that before you went to St. Bernard’s?’
 
‘Before, yeah.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Before, but I was, I was demoted as a clerk and just shortly after my second promotion, after my second marriage, I got promoted a second time.’
 
‘Let, let, let’s talk a little bit about your second marriage.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Where, where did you meet your, what’s your second wife’s name?’
 
‘Gillian.’
 
‘Where did you meet Gillian?’
 
‘At a dance in North London.  You wouldn’t believe it a friend of mine came and said ‘That’s a lovely girl, why don’t you ask her for a dance?’ and I was a bit shy, I’m not a very good dancer.  I was a bit shy, and then, all of a sudden I thought oh yeah I’ll have a dance, see.   So I went and asked her and she said ‘Yes.’  and we got talking.  I thanked her for the dance.  Then after a while I, I got, I got her phone number, she gave me her phone number and I kept phoning her and saying I’d like to go out with her and she said ‘yes, fine’.  So we started a nice friendly relationship and then after a while I fell in love with her and we got engaged and then we got married.’
 
‘What did your parents think about you getting?’
 
‘They, they were quite happy for me.’
 
‘They didn’t mind that she was English?’
 
‘No, they didn’t mind, no they didn’t mind, no.  The were quite happy.  They wanted me to be happy again in life.  I told my parents that I always wanted more children in life.  I love children so much, I wanted to be happy with them, another wife, a new wife, have more children, which we had.  We had two kids, the first two years, my second marriage.  So I got three kids, one from my first marriage, and two from my second marriage.  Beautiful children, they’re, they’re so much like my wife, my two children by my second marriage, both are blonde, Christina and Christopher.  He must be a big boy now, my son.  I haven’t seen him for twenty-five years, I haven’t seen him and Christina.  They babies when this happened.  So I, I do get very very upset sometimes, about bringing two children into this world and losing them.  My not being able to see them and I’
 
‘It’s very difficult.’
 
‘I get depressed sometimes, and mourn, just get into a state.  But there are times when I do get out of my misery.  I do get out of it.  I try very hard.  It’s not easy.  People don’t understand schizophrenia.  People don’t know about what schizophrenia’s like.’
 
‘And I think people don’t understand about depression to be quite honest.’
 
‘Depression and mental illness, loneliness, loneliness in hospital.  Away from the rest of the world, friends, relatives, being treated in hospital for schizophrenia and depression.  Nobody really understand that.  Only the persons suffering from that can understand it.  I could be very, very difficult and then were times when I get very, very upset to think that I been in mental hospitals.  After a prison sentence, having to go back to another mental hospital which I felt wasn’t right.  I thought I was a free man when I came out and then people go, kept saying to me ‘to sue the company I worked for.  To sue them for millions, for what they done to you, what your boss had done to you’ and I said ‘No, I’m not interested in money I just want to be left alone and be happy, find happiness again.  My, I can’t find happiness with money.  I don’t want money.  I just want to be content with life, just the simple things in life.  So I was a fairly average bloke.’
 
‘So you, you’d got married a second time.’
 
‘I got married the second ‘
 
‘You had the two new children.’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘And was Michelle still living with you?
 
‘We sent her to live me, with us, yeah.’
 
‘And you had, you bought a house?’
 
‘There were a few problems between Michelle and my second wife.  They didn’t get on very well together.’
 
‘How, how old was Michelle by this time?’
 
‘She was, let me see, bout ten, bout ten, eleven years old yeah.  She was young, very young.  I bought a nice house in Harrow.  I got my own house and then my wife was expecting the first baby and I had my house fully decorated, fully furnished and I was glad to be a house owner, glad to be a house owner with children, my wife and children with me and I curse the day I went home and told her I got, that I’d been promoted, I curse that day.  I really do curse that day sometimes because it brought back memory, my, my second illness.  It all started with me going home and telling my wife I’d been promoted and then shortly after that taking sick leave.’
 
‘How did you feel when you went home to tell her that you’d been promoted, were you sort of quite excited that you been promoted?’
 
‘I was excited.  She was in the kitchen listening, preparing breakfast for the children, no, no, preparing dinner for the children and then I’d gone on and said I’d been promoted in my job and she congratulated me and gave me a gave me a kiss.  Gave me a kiss and said ‘Oh I’m so happy for you Ken.’ and she had no idea what was going to happen to me and I, and I just went crazy after few month.’
 
‘So you were ok for a few months?’
 
‘I was ok yeah, then it started again, pressure of work.  I can’t do any job, any stressful work, I can’t do it, it affects me.’
 
‘That must be really upsetting for you that.’
 
‘It was.’
 
‘To have all that stuff come back again.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah, a repetition of the first, that first promotion.’
 
‘And what did you do this time?  Did you go back to the GP again?’
 
‘I did.  I started seeing Doctor, Doctor Macken[ph].  He was a very good doctor.  He kept giving me sick leave, sick certi, sickness notes, saying I was suffering from anxiety and depression and then I was sending them to my boss and I thought my boss might call me and say that he’s concerned about, I was hoping he would and demote me a second time but I couldn’t face the thought of being demoted a second time.  That would be really bad for, it would’ve been ok for me physically, but the thought of being demoted twice in my job well it was too much for me to have.  So I just continued as I was for the next day or two until I collapsed, I had my second breakdown.’
 
‘And, when you had your second breakdown, how were you coping, because you said the first time you were staying in your room ‘
 
‘In my room.’
 
‘and your mother was looking after you.’
 
‘Yes, yeah.’
 
‘The second time you were in your house in Harrow.’
 
‘With my wife and children, yeah.’
 
‘How did your wife cope?’
 
‘Oh God.  She didn’t want to know.  She was, she was really fed up with me, taking sick leave.  She said I wasn’t pulling my weight in the house and I was acting very strangely and not con, not very concerned about her and the children.  She knew everything, she knew I was mentally ill again, getting sick.  She knew about my first promotion, I told her before I married her.  Then she had the same experience as my first wife had, having to cope with me being, being mentally ill, taking sick leave from my work.  I had very good job.’
 
‘And who, who suggested that you, was it at this time they suggested you should go to St. Bernard’s?’
 
‘My second wife said I should.  But I said, she, she was SRN, my second wife.’
 
‘Oh right.’
 
‘SRN.  She was very clever girl, very smart.  She, she said, said that I go into a mental hospital and she contacted St. Bernard’s and then I took a taxi, took a taxi to St. Bernard’s and I was admitted there.’
 
‘How did you feel?’
 
‘Oh, I was so scared going to a mental hospital.  I was worried but I knew I couldn’t cope at home, but I knew I couldn’t cope at home, and I, I wasn’t getting on with my wife so I thought it was an escape to go, to be away from her and her nagging me all the time, nagging me all the time, complaining about me.  So I went in St. Bernard’s and they should never, never have given me those ECTs.  They should not have done those, those ECTs to me.  It made me much worse.  It didn’t help me at all.  It only, it only made me insane.’
 
‘So when you, when you first went to St. Bernard’s you said you were feeling very scared.’
 
‘I was scared yeah, but I was going to hospital, mental hospital.’
 
‘Had you any idea before this what a mental hospital would be like?’
 
‘No, no idea at all, never.’
 
‘So what, what, when you first, you took a taxi there.’
 
‘I took a taxi there, yes, from my house.’
 
‘And what were your first impressions?’
 
‘Oh I thought oh God, what’s going to happen here?  What’s going, how I’m going to cope with mental people?  What’s it like sharing, being in a ward with mentally sick people?  Would I die in St. Bernard’s?  Would I be able to ever get out of St. Bernard’s?  All those thoughts used to come into my mind and all I ever worried about was being dead soon, about dying in a mental hospital.  I’ve had that fear for years and years, of dying from mental illness and people kept telling me that schizophrenia is not a killer illness, it’s a mental illness, but it doesn’t kill people.  It makes them feel bad, which it did to me, but I had a phobia about being dead soon.  That’s all I ever thought about, for years.  Morbid thoughts.’
 
‘When you first went to St. Bernard’s was your mother still mother still involved, like, with you?  Did she, what did she think about you going to the mental hospital?’
 
‘She wasn’t very happy, but I told her about the problems I was having with my wife, about the problems at home and how my wife was nagging me.  How my wife took my cricket gear one day and threw it in the sink.  Didn’t let me play cricket that day because she was upset with me, and, I told my mum I had, I had no choice but I had to go into hospital and she came to the hospital and signed a form with me.  I had to sign a form that said that I would have ECT, they recommended ECT.  I had to sign a form and my mother had to countersign and then they started ECT after a while.’
 
‘Was that after you had been in the hospital for a little while?’
 
‘Yes, that’s right, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘So when, when they first saw you, when you first saw the doctor at St. Bernard’s what did he, is that when they diagnosed you as a paranoid?’
 
‘As schizophrenic, yes, paranoid schizophrenic, suffering from mental illness, yeah.’
 
‘Did they explain to you what that meant?
 
‘Oh, they kept saying things about schizophrenia.  I didn’t, I hadn’t a clue about the mental illness until I went in there.  I didn’t know anything about mental illness until I got mentally ill, and they said I’d, I’m suffering from mens., schizophrenia, and they’re going to treat me for it, and I had to sign the form to say I, I agreed to have ECT.  My mum had to sign as well, in case something happened to me.’
 
‘Can you explain, can you remember what it was like have EC, did you, did they explain to you what ECT was?’
 
‘They said it was yes.  A treatment, that send shocks to the brain, mainly for depression.  People suffering from depressed schizophrenia and severe depression.’
 
‘So at that stage, before you had it, did you think it might do you some good?’
 
‘I thought it would.  I thought it would help me.  That’s why I signed to have it but unfortunately Doctor, I don’t know what his name is still.  It, it made me insane.’
 
‘How many treatments did you have?’
 
‘Quite a lot, over ten I would say, over ten over a period of about a year or two years, ‘bout ten treatments and that treatment was no good for me.  I used to get very, very lonely, very, very depressed.  I used to sit by my bed for hours on end, not talking to anybody.  I threatened to go on hunger strike once.  I didn’t want to eat, and I got told off by my consultant.  I wanted, I just wanted to be left alone, I didn’t want to talk to anybody.  I seated by my bed in hospital reading and just be miserable.’
 
‘Would the nurses try to ‘
 
‘The nurses tried to help, yeah, they used to come and see me and talk to me and take me out for walks in the grounds, one of the nurses, just for walks around the grounds and then I used go out to lunch, sometimes I didn’t eat, I used to just have a cup of coffee and go back to my room and sit down there and read the papers again.  Just take life easy, take it easy.’
 
‘What was the ward like, you were on?’
 
‘St. Bernard’s wasn’t a, wasn’t a locked ward.  I was in a locked ward in Napsbury{ph}but St. Bernard’s was a nice open, I had my own room, and I was happy there, on my own.  I didn’t like company, I just want to be left alone.’
 
‘Does everybody have their own room?’
 
‘Not everybody, no.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘There were wards, not everybody.  I had my own room because I was in a bad way.  I couldn’t sleep at night, I couldn’t sleep.  I was having problems with my sleep, insomnia.’
 
‘What would you do at night when you couldn’t sleep.  Did you have to stay in your room?’
 
‘I had to stay in my room most of the time, yeah.  Yes, that’s right.  But  up till about eleven at night I used to watch television.  I used to watch TV for up till about eleven and then I used to go into my room and just sit down for a while for a half an hour and then try to get some sleep and the next morning I used to be shattered.  Didn’t want to face the day ahead of me.’
 
‘Would the, when you couldn’t sleep would the night staff come and talk to you?’
 
‘Yes yes, they would, yes, they, they were helpful.‘
 
‘Had ‘
 
‘The only thing they didn’t do right for me was give me those ECTs.  I should not have had that treatment.  I would never have got insane if I didn’t have that treat, I should not have had it.’
 
‘At the, at the time did you feel that this was a mistake to have the ECT?  Did you feel?’
 
‘I didn’t, I didn’t know what ECT was [inaudible] ‘
 
‘Yeah, yeah, but when you started having it did you think then that ‘oh I don’t like this treatment.’
 
‘I, I thought so yes I did, I did because I was getting worse, and then they did tell me from St. Bernard’s after ECT, there was a great deal of confusion on the ward.  I saw many people, men and women holding crosses.  Some people making the sign of the cross, some people screaming and shouting as to why I was in this, this type of hospital.  I didn’t know what’s gone wrong I wasn’t ok to leave hospital and there was a lot of confusion and I just didn’t want to go anyway else but to my house to see my wife and children.  So what I did to my wife wasn’t planned.  I’d no way of go, going home to harm her or to hurt my children, children.  I went home because I was missing her and the children.  That’s why I went home.’
 
‘When you were in St. Bernard’s did they come to visit, did your wife come to visit you at all?’
 
‘She came just once or twice, just once I think, once and we didn’t have a very good talking.  She didn’t stay long.’
 
‘Did your mother come to visit you?’
 
‘She did, yeah.  Quite often, and Napsbury as well.’
 
‘So you were in St. Bernard’s for about a year?’
 
‘Yeah, that’s right.  I had ECT, many ECT.’
 
‘Can you remember about what, what used to happen on those days when you used to go for ECT.’
 
‘Oh God.’
 
‘Can you remember?’
 
‘No food, no food in the morning, no food, take, take me down to the room about ten o’clock, about half past ten in the morning and then after a short while they used to give me inject in the arm and put me on a stretcher and take me into the room for, that had the ECT and then all I can remember was lying on the bed and then something put on, this machine put on my head.  I had electric shock sent through my brain.  I was unconscious after the injection, under anesthetic, but I could have, I could have, although I was unconscious I could have felt my whole body moving in bed.  I was just, just shaking in bed, my whole body was ache, shaking with this ECT on my head sending shocks through my brain and then when I came out of it I felt terrible and then I, I used to go out for a meal.  I used to go out for lunch after the ECT and then go back to my room and just sit down there, quietly.  I should have told the doctors I wasn’t fit to leave hospital.  I should have told them.  I made a mistake leaving hospital.’
 
‘You said ‘
 
‘I, I should not have gone home in the state of mind I was in, they had a serious affect on me, those ECT.
 
‘You said that immediately after the ECT you felt terrible.  What, what do you mean, that you felt  ?’
 
‘Mean part of my body shaking, about treating me like a guinea pig, like an animal, sending shocks through my brain.  I’m a human being I, I want something better than ECT.  Why are they giving me ECT.  Why did they get me to sign forms to say I, I’ll have ECT.  Why did my mother have to come and counter-sign.  Why were they scared that I would die after ECT or during ECT.  All this didn’t wor, having an affect on me and they were playing tricks on me, and most the time I felt that I was going die there soon.  I was going be dead there.’
 
‘Could you discuss any of your worries with the doctors, or the nurses?’
 
‘I did.  I, I wasn’t very well treated in mental hospital.  I, I had lots of problems with some of the staff.  I felt they were taking the Mickey out of me about what I’d done to my wife.  I was quite a nutcase, a psychopath an attem, attempted murderer, people were taking the Mickey out of me, some of the patients and those things upset me.  Well I’m not a nut case.  I know what I done was what a nutcase would do but I’m not one of them.  So, my life has been up and down, good and bad, lovely teenage life, happy teenage life and not so good from age of thirty, twenty-seven and thirty-five, two mental illnesses.  Not so good.
 
‘No, no.’
 
‘And then sometimes I say ‘Oh God I should have stayed in Sri Lanka’.  No matter what troubles was a life in Sri Lanka, I should have stayed in my home.’
 
‘You never know though do you?’ [both speak at the same time]
 
‘Never know, no-one can tell, no-one can tell what’s going to happen.  Life is so unpredictable.  Worse things happen to other people, some people die, cancer, look at Cilla Black’s husband last week.  That man, only fifty-seven years old, passed away.’
 
‘Ken, we’re going to stop again now ‘
 
‘Yes, ok.’
 
‘so you can have some lunch and a bit of a break.’
 
‘Ok, thank you so much, thank you very much.’
 
‘Yeah?’
 
‘I hope I haven’t been a bore.’
 
‘No, it’s brilliant, I mean, you’re so interesting.’
 
‘I, I, I’ve been talking a, I’ve been talking a lot about my two promotions and my two marriages.’
 
‘No, that’s fine.  I was just, I was just trying to get the sequence clear.’
 
 
‘OK, Ken, we were talking about your life in St. Bernard’s.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘And you were telling me about, you had ECT but you didn’t feel, in fact you felt it made things worse for you.’
 
‘Yeah, it did, yeah.’
 
‘Did you have any other treatments while you were in there?’
 
‘No, just medication, tablets a day, normally on a night-time for sleeping and Valium as well. [coughs]  I was on quite a lot of drugs.  I was taking about sixteen tablets a day.’
 
‘Really.’
 
‘Quite a lot of medication, but the ECT I’m positive, absolutely certain never helped me.  It didn’t help me at all.’
 
‘Did you feel the medication was helping you?’
 
‘A little bit, yes, a little bit, but as I say, I felt I was on too many tablet, too many tablet, but it did help me, but the ECT definitely didn’t help me.’
 
‘And were you getting side effects from medication?’
 
‘I was feeling drowsy at times, very drowsy.  Some times I used to have [pause] dizziness, dizziness, dizzy spells, couldn’t get up, I used to feel dizzy I had to sit down, felt dizzy and generally ECT was no good, it didn’t help me.  If only they’d given me some treat, proper treatment, I could have, I could have been still married to my wife and I have my children.’
 
‘Did they, did anybody at St. Bernard’s sit down with you and try to talk to you about what, had happened?’
 
‘Yes, Mr. Smith and Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Smith was a top consultant there and Mr. Kennedy was in my, on the night staff.  He was a, what was he?, night nurse.  He used to help me night time, give my medication, make sure I go to bed, then, in the morning, I wake up and have a shower, a shower or a bath, have a shave, dress up for the morning and then sometimes on a Monday morning I, I used to get ready for ECT.  I should not have signed that form for ECT.’
 
‘No.’
 
‘I made a mistake.’
 
‘How did the consultant help you, you said there was?’
 
‘They used to talk to me and give me medication.’
 
‘And were you able to talk to them about what had?’
 
‘I, I was, yes, yes.  In St. Bern, you know where St. Bernard’s is?  It’s in Ealing - it’s a big mental hospital.  But at, I had a friend there called Roy, he, he, he had same problems as I did, same problem, breakdowns, two breakdowns and he told me something which surprised me, he said that his father used to beat him up, quite regularly, because he was having mental problems.  His father didn’t like it and he used to beat him up, he was a young guy, and one day he killed his father.  He killed his father and he got off with a, he got off with a very light sentence, but he, he was very similar, his case was very similar to mine, mental problem, breakdown, his father harassed him, beat him up and one day he went crazy and killed his father, and he went to prison for a few years and then back into St. Bernard’s.  I didn’t go back to St. Bernard’s, I went into Napsbury after my break, after my prison sentence.’
 
‘So, you were saying, he was a friend of yours at St. Bernard’s’
 
‘A friend, well, yeah, I used to talk to him quite a lot, we became good friend.  I did have some good friends there.  People who had problem, mental health problems, then every Saturday night they would have a, a party, for the patients, and the, and staff.  They used to have a disco, which was quite good.’
 
‘Did you used to?’
 
‘That wasn’t my idea, and one thing I did like about Napsbury was Christmas time, like now it’s a little close to Christmas.  We used to be invited to different wards around the hospital, for meals, Christmas parties, food and drink and then carol singers coming along, Christmas carol, lovely, I enjoyed that.’
 
‘That sounds ‘
 
‘But I didn’t like the thought of being in a mental hospital, I didn’t like it.’
 
[both spoke at the same time]
 
‘people, it leaves a stigma I think.  People do tend to talk about somebody that’s been in a mental hospital, with mental health problems, not find what they do, are suffering from.  People do tend to, to look down upon mental peoples, it’s quite common I think.’
 
‘Yes, I, I think I agree with you definitely there.’
 
‘Yes, yes.’
 
‘You were saying, so you were in St. Bernard’s for about a year.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘And then you were discharged and you said ‘
 
‘After ECT.’
 
there was a lot of confusion.’
 
‘Confusion on the ward.  People were praying, somebody made the sign of the Cross, somebody was holding a Cross, as if to say, ‘this guy shouldn’t be discharged from the hospital, they’re making a mistake discharging him.’
 
‘Who made the decision to discharge you?’
 
‘Mr. Smith, the consultant.  He should not have discharged me in the state of mind I was in.  I don’t think he quite realised what state of my mind was in.  I was the only one who knew I wasn’t safe.’
 
‘So you knew yourself?’
 
‘I knew I wasn’t safe to go home in the, condition I was in… the mental state I was in.  I was walking the streets of London looking at people in the street and I was saying to myself, ‘human beings’, people walking on the streets, and I was out of a mental hospital trying to find my way back to my home, a bit confused, a bit lost.  I should not have gone home.  I made a serious mistake going home.  But what I did, what I did, was just out of the blue, I didn’t plan  it.  It happened.  But I was not in a fit state of mind there.  It’s too late now, I went home and that was it.’
 
‘Did, did, what happened happen on the same day that you were discharged?’
 
‘Yes, that evening.’
 
‘That evening.  So you left the hospital?’
 
‘I did, yeah, and caught the tube, took the tube from London, from Ealing Broadway to my house in Harrow.  I went to see my wife and kids, not knowing that I was going to run into trouble with her.’
 
‘Did she know you were coming, going to be discharged?’
 
‘She didn’t know, she didn’t know.  I didn’t phone and tell her.  I gave her a surprise.  Then she’s adamant that she was taking the children and leaving me and she wanted a divorce.  She said she was, not happy, she wanted me, wanted a divorce, and I wasn’t prepared to divorce her.  Then we started arguing, quarrelling and it got out of hand and then I went for her.  Not knowing what I was doing.’
 
‘Were, the children were there at that time?’
 
‘The children were young, Michelle was at school, my oldest daughter, at school and some time in the evening, she hadn’t come back from school yet and the two children in the back garden playing, Christina and Christopher, they were babies, quite young.  They were in the back garden.  In fact, if my wife had died from the injury I don’t know what would have happened to my children.  The neighbours might have been there, my neighbours might have looked after them or somebody would have looked after them, so I did the right thing in telling the police what I’d done and they went home and took her to hospital and stitch her up.’
 
‘So you immediately ’
 
‘I did.’
 
‘realised you’d done something wrong?’
 
‘I’d done wrong, yes.  In view of the state of health I was, mental health I was in and had serious provocation, but I, I believe that marriage is for life, ‘Till, till death do us part’.  That’s why I wasn’t prepared to give my consent for a divorce.  Although I was ill I wasn’t prepared to, her divorce me, and I did tell her.  ‘We married for better for worse, in sickness and in health.  I’m not prepared to, to have a divorce.  I want you at home I want to be with you at home.’  But she wouldn’t have it.  Oh God, she nagged me every day, she nagged me.’
 
‘Can you remember Ken how the police were to you when you went to the police?’
 
‘The police, police were very, very good to me.  They knew the problem, I, I, I told them about my being de, de, dis, discharged from the mental hospital after I was ill, given the ECT, and I spoke to the de, de, de, det, detective in charge and he was quite pleased that I’d gone and told them what had happened.  He said ‘We’ll get a car off to your house straight away and see how your wife is and in the meantime I’m detaining you in, in, in the cell.’  They locked me up for a little while in a cell, and then the police officers came back later on after taking my wife to hospital and they said ‘they’ve stitched her up and she’s ok.’  Then then I went to, they handcuffed me and took me to Brixton and about two weeks later my wife came to see me in Brixton.  She came with the children and she was crying and I started crying and I didn’t want to upset the children, I said the best thing for her to do is to go back home.  I said ‘I’ll do my sentence and I’ll come out hopefully, and that’s it.  I don’t think we should every see each other again.’,  I told her ‘It’s best we don’t see each other again.’  So we split up there, and then, she got the divorce through while I was in prison.  I gave my consent after, later on.’
 
‘When she came to see you in prison?’
 
‘I was sad and very upset.’
 
‘Was she, she wanted to get back together with you.’
 
‘No, no, no, no, she just came to see how I was.  Not to get back together.  Just to see how I was and for me to know that she was ok.  That she was, going to be all right.’
 
‘Did you feel that she had forgiven you for what had happened?’
 
‘I think so, I feel that, yeah.  She was sorry that I had been imprisoned over what I’d done to her, she was, she was sorry that, I, I, I’d had mental health problems and I ended up in prison after hurting her.  I still love her but it’s best I don’t see her again, it’d be too much for me.  So we’re parted now and that’s it.   We, she divorced me and I accepted the divorce.  The house was sold and we got some money from the sale of the house.  We shared the money, it, it was in joint names.  So I gave her half the sale, the sale of the house but she wanted the custody of the children and I had no option.  I couldn’t look after the children when I was in prison.  I knew I couldn’t look after them in the future so she got the custody of the two children and then my mum looked after Michelle, my eldest daughter, again.  My mum took over.’
 
‘Right, so your second wife took her two children.’
 
‘Yes, yes that’s right.’
 
‘And Michelle went back to your mother?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘And did Michelle come to see you in prison?’
 
‘Just once.  She was crying.  She was so up, she didn’t want to see me there.’
 
‘And she?’
 
‘She was very upset, she was very, very, very upset.  She’s had a miserable, a traumatic life, Michelle, you know, the loss of her mum, first mum, then the second mum and the children, then me being mentally ill again, second time.  She’s had a pretty traumatic life, but she’s coping very well now.  She’s got two lovely children and she’s coping very well.  She married a Greek boy, Greek lad, Guerney[ph] nice guy.  I get on very well with him.  So she’s settled down now and she’s reasonably well, happy with, with the children and him and she sees me regularly, quite regularly, I go and visit her.  It only takes one half an hour to reach, reach her from here.  I take the bus to High Barnet Station and then the tube to Finchley Central and she’s two minutes walk from the station to her home.  Takes me just about half an hour.  So I spend an hour or two talking to her and playing with children and come back here, come back home here.  So I’m quite happy that arrangement.’
 
‘And how many children has she got?’
 
‘My second wife?’
 
‘No, how many children has Michelle got?’
 
‘Oh, sorry, sorry, Michelle, two children, a boy and girl, three, three and one.’
 
‘Is the boy three?’
 
‘The boy’s three, but, but she has some very, very, very, upsetting experience with the second child, with Christina.  She was born three months premature and she spent nine month in Great Ormond Street Hospital.  My daughter thought that she would lose her.  She thought that, she might not pull through because she was so small when she was born that she, the doctors took charge of her in Great Ormond Street Hospital and thank God the doctor did really well to get her better and Michelle was so upset and concerned.  Thank God she’s fine now, she’s doing very well.  She was one in July, first of, first of July and she’s doing very well now.  So the two children are just fine, beautiful.’
 
‘It’s lovely, and have you started teaching your little grandson cricket?’
 
‘I have, I have, have, yeah I have.  They’ve got a small back garden and I go and play cricket with him in the back garden.’
 
‘So you’re going to make him into a cricketer?’
 
‘Maybe, yeah [laughs] yeah.’
 
‘Good.  Ok.  Can I, can I just take you back a bit to being in prison?’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Because you went to Brixton.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘While you were waiting for the trial?’
 
‘’Yeah, that’s right.’
 
‘How did you find life?’
 
‘Oh, it was horrible.  Too many peo, too many mentally sick people there.  There were three suicides in the first two weeks I was there.  Two, three blokes that committed suicide and lots, lots and lots of homosexuals, really crazy people there, they disgusting being there.  I was in a cell to start with with two West Indians and I had a hell of a rough time in, in there with them.’
 
‘Can you say a bit more about ?’
 
‘They, they kept asking me why I was in, what I told them, they didn’t like it.  They promised to, probably wanted to beat me up and then I was very scared, I, somebody might harm me there, was frightened, and then after a while, after the trial, I went to the, I went to Wormwood Scrubs and then I went to Bro, Maidstone, I did my last year in Maidstone.  I, I had a term of my remission off, one bit of the sentence off for good behaviour.  So I came out and I was so happy the day I came out and then I didn’t settle for going back into another mental hospital.  I didn’t settle for that.  I said ‘I’d rather die there in my flat with no-one with me than go back into another mental hospital.  Because quite frankly I hated mental hospitals, I didn’t like it all there.  I didn’t like the thought of being in a mental hospital so.’
 
‘What was it that was, that you?’
 
‘Oh, it’s too much, too many guys, fighting, quarrelling, robbing money, pestering mon, cigarettes and money every day, people borrowing money, stealing money in the night time.  Our lockers, there were no locks to our little cupboards, no locks.  I used to keep money in my, in my locker, morning is gone, five, ten pounds, I lost fifteen pounds in the hospital.  Not much but it, it, it was quite a lot of money for me, and fighting and quarreling, people acting very stupid.’
 
‘Would, how did the life in the mental hospital compare with life in the prison?’
 
‘Oh, I would say the mental hospital was much, much better than being in prison.  Prison culture in prison was just dreadful.  I don’t know how people survive in prison.  It’s not a place for people to go to, it’s no way.’
 
‘You know when you were waiting for your trial?’
 
‘Trial, yeah.’
 
‘Did they take your mental health problems into consideration?’
 
‘They did get a psychiatrist and a doctor to see me and talk to me and they got a priest to come along, a priest, catholic priest, and they had a long discussion with me and I told them that I wanted to plead not guilty when I go to the Old Bailey, because I was discharged from mental, a mental hospital when I was mad.  I told them that I was insane after ECT and I was hoping to get off with, with a light sentence, or with no sentence at all, and I need to be, need to be confined to a mental hospital for suitable treatment, and they told me it’s up to the Judge, they can’t, they have no powers to do anything.  It’s up to the Judge when I go to the Old Bailey and the Judge wouldn’t give in on mental illness, which I thought was quite unfair, quite mean.’
 
‘So the psychia ?’
 
‘He said, he said I should do a sentence in prison, and I was so upset.  I had no bail, I had no bail, my wife wasn’t in court, my wife didn’t justify what happened and I, and the de, de, de, detective, showed the knife to the Judge and said ‘This is what the man used to stab his wife’ and the Judge sentenced me and I just collapsed at the, at the dock, and they took me away, and that was the last straw for me.  I really wanted to commit suicide in prison, I wanted to find a way to die.  I just wanted to die in prison.  I didn’t want to come out alive.  I timed myself about killing myself.’
 
‘So when you were in that court situation, ‘
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘you had nobody who was really ‘
 
‘Nobody.’
 
‘speaking up for you?‘
 
‘Nobody.  My wife wasn’t there to testify, my brother wasn’t there, my mum wasn’t there.  My whole family was away from me and I was petrified.  I was trembling when I went in the dock, through the sentence, I was trembling with fear.  Because I was still mentally ill, I was still suffering from schizophrenia.’
 
‘And you don’t feel the Judge took that into consideration?’
 
‘He didn’t, he didn’t.  He kept saying that the, the hospital wouldn’t have dis, discharged me from hospital if they thought that I was unwell.  He wouldn’t hear of it, which I thought was not right.  I know I done something wrong but they should’ve taken into consideration my schizophrenia and my, my state of mind, and my wife’s provocation.  They should confine me to a mental hospital for treatment until such time that I was well, get better, able to leave and not send me to prison.  There’re too many people in prison now.  Too many.’
 
‘What, what sentence did you receive?’
 
‘He gave me six years.  I did four and a half years.’
 
‘How long ago?’
 
‘I came out, that was in 1976, seventy-five, seventy-five.’
 
‘You come out?’
 
‘I came out, yeah.’
 
‘And how long were you in Wormwood Scrubs?’
 
‘Bout three years.’
 
‘How was life there?’
 
‘Oh God, horrible.
 
‘Worse than Brixton?’
 
‘Locked, locked up in prison, locked up in a cell all day long, only one hour exercise in the morning.  There’s no way to treat a human being like that.  I know people do wrong in life, they do wrong, but they shouldn’t be punished for it.  Most people who go to prison should be confined to hospital, mental hospital.  Because ninety percent of the people in prison are mentally sick people.  People who had mental illness.’
 
‘Is that what you were finding whilst you were in there?’
 
‘That’s what I was finding, yeah.  Lots of nutcases there, mentally sick people,.  Chinese, African, West Indians, English, Irish.  Lots of people there, mentally sick, and there was one bloke I knew, I knewd him, I only spoke to him once and a few days later he committed suicide in his cell, he committed suicide, he cut his wrists, he got, he got, he cut his wrists and he bled to death.  I knew him, I knew the guy, committed suicide.  Then two more after that.  So life in prison was dreadful.’
 
‘Was ?’
 
‘Locked up in a cell there all day long.’
 
‘Did people get any treatment for their mental health problems?’
 
‘They were taking treatment.  You had to queue to up for treatment every morning.   Ten o’clock, exercise, then after exercise you have a shower, then go back to the cell, our cell, and then most probably had medication in the morning, treatment in the morning, then back, then out for exercise, then come back to cell for lunch.  The meals were shocking, oh dear me, what terrible food.’
 
‘What did they give you to eat?’
 
‘Fish and chips, horrible food.  I’m not very keen on English food.  I like curries, very much, but the food was dreadful.  I didn’t want to eat, I, I, I kept saying “I don’t want to eat’ and then they kept telling me that I got to eat, they forced me to eat.  So I had four and a half years of absolute hell there.  Not because of my fault, but because of the negligence of the doctors in, in St. Bernard’s.  It was negligence on their part to, to discharge me after ECT, when I was insane.  They should not have discharged me.  I could have been so happy to live with me wife and children if I had the right treatment.  I would have had my wife talking to me now, I’d be with her and the children, not ending up in prison because of a mental problems, about the negligence of St. Bernard’s doctors.  They shouldn’t fool around with people’s lives, at the, the hospital, they shouldn’t do it.’
 
‘When, when you were in prison, after the trial, ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Were you able to say what you’re saying now to the doctors?’
 
‘I was, I was, yeah.’
 
‘What did they say to that?’
 
‘They kept, they kept saying that ‘Everybody here is crazy, you should not have signed this, you should not have signed the document for, for ECT.’  I kept saying, about the ECT.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘And they said I shouldn’t have signed the form for ECT.’
 
‘So they were putting the blame back on you?’
 
‘They were, yes.  They said that ‘It’s your fault for signing the form.  If it made you worse and you think you got worse after ECT, that’s tough luck’ they said ‘that’s tough luck, you should’ve told us this early.’
 
‘And how did that make you feel?’
 
‘Oh it made me so upset and angry, I was so angry.  I loved my wife so much and I kept saying ‘Oh God, I want to be with her and the children.  I cannot face this mental illness because this is torment.’  The thing that keep going through my mind.  All the voices talking to me and saying, and saying, ‘People are trying to kill me, my boss is trying to kill me.  What’s my boss up to?  Is he playing games with me?  Is he trying to kill me once?  Is he trying to kill me twice?  What has he done with my life and my two promotions and my breakdown.  What has he done for me?  Any good for me, he’s only made me bad twice.’  So I was blaming, putting all the blame on my boss for what happened to my marriages and my two breakdowns.’
 
‘Were you still in contact with your boss?’
 
‘I wrote to him just once in prison, I wrote to him.  I wrote to him just once.’
 
‘Did he reply?’
 
‘And I told him, he replied yes, he replied and said how sorry he was.  He said it wasn’t intentional, it was just unfortunate that things didn’t work out very well for me and he’s made arrangements with the company for me to get a small pension from the company, which I got, a small pension.  Just enough to keep me going for a while and he wished me good health, good luck and said hoped to see one, so soon, one day and the next thing I heard, I came out of prison and the next thing I heard, they send me a bulletin every year, a magazine, I saw his photo in the magazine and see he had died, that he was dead, and I saw his photograph and I said ‘Oh God, my boss is dead, my boss who tried to kill me twice he dead, have mercy on his soul, I hope, I hope he’ll rest in peace.’  and I forgave him, in my mind, I forgave him.  I said ‘he’s not tried to kill me, although I think he’s tried to kill me, he really wasn’t he was trying to help me.’  So forgave him and asked Jesus for, for forgiveness for myself for what I’d done, and that was it, he passed away.’
 
‘So until that time when he actually died?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘You were still very much thinking that he was ?’
 
‘He was trying to murder me, yeah, kill me, yeah, I did, I had, voices were saying in my mind.  I used to hear voices every day, every day, every night.  The voices were saying that he was trying to murder me, he, because he didn’t like me, or he was jealous of me because I was a good cricketer, and he wasn’t, and then, all of a sudden I heard about his death and that was it.  I accepted what had happened and I was trying to settle down, more calmly, not hear voices, stop the voices.  I hate voices talking to me, they frighten me and then I said I want to lead a happy life, better life for the future with my grandchildren and my daughter, and although I lost my second wife, not seeing her again or the children, it’s, I’m so sad for what’s happened, to try and look forward now and live a normal life, take each day as it comes and look forward to the future, because nobody can change what’s happened, no-one can do it.  Nobody can stop what’s happened.  I’m still mentally ill but I’m not violent any more, I’m not violent.  Still with disturbing mind, very disturbed.’
 
‘You were saying that you were having quite bad experiences with the voices ?’
                                                    
‘Voices, yeah.’
 
‘After your boss died, did that get less, the voices, or were you still having ‘
 
‘Now let me see, when my boss died I was in Napsbury
 
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‘Oh yes.  Can we just’
 
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‘with my two marriages, my two breakdowns and my prison sentence, and all that’s happened, further confusion in the mind.  Sometimes I get very, very confused in mind and I need help so I talk to people.  I have a key worker here who helps me.  We talk, quite often, counseling, so that helps.  Some, I don’t like bottling things up in me, I like talking about it, sharing my problem with somebody.’
 
‘I’m quite concerned about what, who were you sharing your problems with while you were in prison, while you were in Wormwood Scrubs?’
 
‘The priest, catholic priest.  I used to go and see him, very often.  I never miss services, Sunday services in, in prison.  I was always well enough to go to church.  Even if I was feeling ill and not comfortable then, I, I did go.  I wanted Jesus, God and Jesus to help me, to help me with, to overcome what’s happened in my life, to give me peace of mind, to drive the voices away from me, the horrible voices that’s putting evil thoughts into my mind.  So I went to the priest and he was very helpful.  He gave me communion every day, every Sunday, and he used to come and visit me during the week, the catholic priest, which I was very grateful for.’
 
‘That sounds very important.’
 
‘Yeah, well I am a good catholic, I do practice my religion.’
 
‘Were you quite religious before?’
 
‘I was, yeah.  Always gone to church, but I became a bit more religious after, after what happened, more religious.’
 
‘And apart from the Chaplain was there ?’
 
‘Chaplain was there, yes.’
 
‘Yeah, was there anybody else that was, close to ‘
 
‘There was, the wardens, the wardens.’
 
‘What were they like?’
 
‘They were nice, they were nice guy, nice guy.  But it’s people in the mental hospital talk nonsense.  They keep saying that I’m a psychopath, that I’m a murderer, and all these things, some of the guys there, some of the guys there, in the mental hospital.’
 
‘Right, right, let, let’s come on to that in a second.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘So you went from Wormwood Scrubs then you went to‘
 
‘Maidstone.’
 
‘To Maidstone, which is a, open prison?’
 
‘Open prison, that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘I think, earlier on, you said something about that you’d gone on hunger strike?’
 
‘Ah yes, that was at Wormwood Scrubs.’
 
‘That was in Wormwood Scrubs, ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘What was that about?’
 
‘I was upset with two West Indians who were in my cell.  They were trying to get funny with me and I didn’t like it.’
 
‘Trying to be violent with you?’
 
‘Ye-eh and they, they were talking all rubbish, nonsense, and then I told, spoke to the warden once and he told me, he move me to Maidstone, to an open prison and I spend my time, I was always in hospital, you know.  I didn’t tell you, did I?  I was always in hospital in prison, hospital room.  I didn’t work in hospital, I couldn’t, I was not well enough to work, so they come, they put in, in hospital.’
 
‘Even in Wormwood Scrubs?’
 
‘Yeah, yes.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Yeah.  I was in bed in hospital and seated next to my bed during the day, after, after exercise and lunch I was seated next to my bed in, in hosp, in the wing, hospital wing, and the doctor and psychiatrist see me three or four times a week and the priest seeing me there already.’
 
‘So you weren’t in a cell, you were, on a, ward?’
 
‘Oh no, I was in a cell for a while sorry, in it for a while, then after the trouble they moved me to hos, to the hospital, after the trouble with the two West Indians.  They were homosexual they were and I don’t like that, that upset me, I didn’t like it.’
 
‘And when you were in the hospital wing did they give you any treatment?’
 
‘Yes they did.  They gave me tablets, medication tablets, and a girl used to come in, in the mornings and we used to go into a small room and do a little bit of art, that’s all, just for an hour, half and hour or an hour.  She used to get me to draw pictures and I used to spend about half an hour to an hour just doing some drawing, art, which wasn’t too bad.’
 
‘Did you find that helpful?’
 
‘Oh yes, yes I did.  Stopped me from worrying and think, hearing voices and then something, oh yes, I did read the Bible in prison.  I read the whole of the Bible.  I read about Genesis, all the Lukes, the Bible, New and Old Testament.  I read the whole Bible in prison and that gave me a lot of comfort because I do put a lot of trust in God, I do believe, and I felt, if I want ever to be forgiven, I want God to forgive me for what I’ve done.  I’m sorry for what I did, I really am, but I was a sick man when it happened and my wife should not have provoked me the way she did.  So she’s partly to blame for what happened not, it’s not just me taking all the blame, she’s partly to blame for what happened.  If she’d only loved me, she’d have stuck by me to the end, but she didn’t love me.  In sickness or in health, I believe it, that’s why I married her.  She wasn’t to know that I was going to get mentally ill when she married me.  It was just a year after we were married that I got ill, just like my first wife and me.  So both my experiences in life coincided with my two marriages, both my promotions and to me it’s very confusing some times to accept it.’
 
‘It is confusing that.’
 
‘It makes me very confused in mind.  Why does this have to happen to me, to, just after my marriages, these two promotions in my job.’
 
‘That’s right, because those are very positive things aren’t they?’
 
‘Yes, that’s right.  If only I’d not have ever accepted promotion, been happy as a clerk, my life would have been so different for me.  No problems, whatsoever, I never had financial problems, I never had any other problems other than my two promotions and my job.  I was very sick, mentally, when I was discharged from hospital, very very sick.’
 
‘Do you feel that while you were in prison they did anything about your sickness, do you think they.’
 
‘They used to give me tablets, lots and lots of tablets, medication, and then Mogadon at night time for sleeping.  I used to wake up in the night and keep going to the toilet, drinking lots and lots of water and keep going in and out of the toilet, and it went on for quite some time.  But when I came out of prison I never, never settled to go back into another mental hospital.  I didn’t, I didn’t, want, go back.  I wanted my freedom, but I didn’t have my freedom because my mum died and my brother won’t have me in his house, my elder brother.’
 
‘Did your mum die while you were in Maidstone?’
 
‘No, she died after I came out of prison, after I came out.  She was looking after me in Hendon, she had a flat, and she was caring for me, looking after me and I was very close to her and she helped me a great deal.  But when she died, passed away, nobody wanted to know me.  My, my brother, my brother didn’t want to know me at all.  He said he can’t take responsibility of what, anything that’s going to happen to me and said ‘The best thing for you to do is to go back to another mental hospital’, and he was a bit cruel to me, he was.  I think it was him who really got me to go back, to go to Napsbury, and spend another seventeen years there.’
 
‘Was this your eldest brother?’
 
‘My eldest brother who died last year, yes.
 
‘Where, where were your sister and your younger ?’
 
‘My sister was in Australia, she was in Aus, she is in Australia.’
 
‘And?’
 
‘She went to Australia.’
 
‘Where was your younger brother?’
 
‘He, he was in, he was in London, he was in London and [pause] the day I went home, I phoned him just before what happened and I told him I was not in a fit state of mind and he told me ‘Ken, don’t let anything, anything turn into arguments with your wife, just leave the house, and come to my place.’  and the fool that I was I refused. I said ‘No, I want to be home in my house, I’ll see you tomorrow.’  I told him and then my wife came, all of a sudden came downstairs and this argument started, and we started quarreling and she said she wanted to divorce me, or leave me.  She doesn’t want the mentally sick husband and that was it, that was it.’
 
‘So your eldest brother, elder brother, was saying to you ‘
 
‘He wouldn’t want me in the house.  My younger brother was here and he told me not to go home.  I told him I was a bit confused in my mind and not feeling well mentally and he warned me not to get involved into any arguments with my wife, he didn’t, he knew my wife quite well.  He knew that she was nagging me and harassing me with my illness.’
 
‘So he was warning you?’
 
‘He was warning me not to, not to get into any trouble, to go and spend the night at his place, or go back to hospital, which I didn’t do, because I wanted to be in my own house.  I, I had a house of my own.  So it didn’t work out very well.’
 
‘So was it your eldest brother who suggested that you go to Napsbury?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Or was it the doctors who were suggesting it?’
 
‘It was my elder brother, el, elder brother who, who spoke to the consultant at Napsbury.  He got the address of Napsbury and he phoned the consultant ’
 
‘Did you?’
 
‘and told him about my history, ‘bout my illness.’
 
‘Did you actually have a, a period, between leaving Maidstone and going to Napsbury?’
 
‘Yes, short, just a short time.  I was there a few months.’
 
‘And who, where were you living then?’
 
‘With my mum.’
 
‘Right, your mum was still alive.’
 
‘Yes, with my mum.’
 
‘And Michelle was still there?’
 
‘Michelle was, Michelle was still there, that’s right, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Right, so how did you feel when your brother was insisting on you going back to the hospital?’
 
‘Oh, I felt bad.  I thought he was being very mean and unfair.  I thought he should help me because I, I needed help, I needed to drive these voices away from me, and he wasn’t prepared to do it.  He kept saying that, [pause] that I was a nutcase, he kill, he, he said as well that I was a nutcase and I didn’t like it and we used to have arguments about it and I told him that he doesn’t know what mental illness is like, he doesn’t know what I’m suffering from.  If only he knew, he’d be more understanding, but we didn’t get on very well together.’
 
‘What ?’
 
‘And I only saw him after many, many years on his deathbed.  I saw him just as he was dying, when the doctors gave up all hope of him, he was in the Royal Free Hospital Hampstead, and I was summoned there.  I got a call from my daughter to say that my brother, wants to see me, and I went.  I took a taxi to the hospital, and he spoke to me, just a few words and he just said he’s sorry and ‘I wish you well, I might pass away’ he said ‘very soon, I don’t want us to be enemies, I want us to be brothers and Ken I’ll, I wish you good luck and I hope everything go well for you’ and I wished him good luck and I went back home an hour later and just after midnight, about, just after midnight, they phoned to say he had, he had just died.  So I lost my elder brother, last year, and then I, I kept saying ‘Oh God, most of my, members of my family are dead, everybody in my family is dying, my mum’s dead, my dad’s dead, my first wife’s dead, my brother’s dead.’  All I could ever think about was death, and all I could ever think about myself was being dead as well.’
 
‘That sounds like a very emotional scene at your brother’s death bed.’
 
‘Yeah, yeah, yes.’
 
‘You know, did you ?’
 
‘The forgiveness, he forgave me and me forgave him.’
 
‘Do you feel that ?
 
‘I didn’t wanted to go and see him.’
 
‘You feel you were able to forgive him.’
 
‘Yeah I was, yeah.  Well I got a, I got a good heart, I, I, I forgive him.   I, I, I hope people forgive for what they’ve done.  When, if they want forgiveness from God then they should forgive for what they’ve done, which I have done.  I don’t hate my wife, I don’t hate her, I still love her, but I don’t see her again, it’s best not.  It’d be too much for me to see her again and the children.  But I got Michelle and the grandchildren, which is good.  Hello Andy, hello.’
 
‘Did, when your bro, so your brother decided to take, when you came ‘
 
‘Came out.’
 
‘Came out, your brother decided to take control and say to you that he thought you should go to Napsbury.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘What did your, what was your mum thinking this time?’
 
‘Oh, my mum, my mum was very, very confused.  She didn’t know, I was ill, in, in, in the flat with her.  She knew I, I, I, I wasn’t eating well, she knew that I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I was still hearing voices and talking all about the voices and she didn’t like all that and she told me ‘It’s, it’s best that you go for a little while Ken, a year or two.’ and I said ok, I agreed to it.  Because I was down, I was very down and out, and I never settled for spending seventeen years in Napsbury.  Every year they kept saying when I, I was on the rehabilitation ward, that they would discharge me very soon and it just went on year after year, year after year, the same torment, the same misery in being in a mental hospital.  It went on for seventeen years and there was only one thing they done for me there was to give me weekend leave, after a few years, that’s all.  Go home on a Friday night to my mum’s and come back Monday morning.  That was what I, I, I, I got, enjoyed, the weekend boost, back with my mum.  But every Monday to Friday I had to be in hospital, Monday morning to Friday evening.’
 
‘At the beginning, you weren’t allowed any leave at all, you were in hospital all the time?’
 
‘Yeah, that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘When you first went to the hospital, did your brother come with you, or did your mother come with you?’
 
‘My mum came, my mum and brother came with me, yes, that’s right, he took me by car.  He took me by car.’
 
‘And what was your first impression of Napsbury.’
 
‘Oh God.  I thought I’m going back to another, [coughs] another asylum, another place for mentally sick people.  I’m mentally ill, I’m, I’m going to be admitted again into another mental hospital.  What has all these things, horrible things happen in my life?  Couldn’t I’d’ve had a better life, I deserve a better life, not all this misery and suffering.  I want a good life, with my family, and not think of my past, my promotion, my breakdown, my prison sentence, my mental state, my mental health.  Why I’m so scared of dying from schizophrenia?  All those things were playing on my mind.  We are dying Napsbury, we are parcel in Napsbury.  Seventeen years I was thinking, all the time I was thinking I was going to be dead, in Napsbury, I die there.’
 
‘Did you have any idea, in your mind that, Napsbury might actually help you, or it might you make you better?’
 
‘Yes, in a way I did think Napsbury would help me, but I didn’t, I couldn’t understand why they kept me for seventeen years there.  They kept saying I was unfit to leave, they said yeah, I, I’m no, not fit enough to leave from them.  They said I couldn’t cope with the outside world and they made me institutionalised.  Long, many, many years in a mental hospital.’
 
‘Let, let’s talk about that process of being institutionalised.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Because, when you first went in there, were you on a locked ward or on ?
 
‘I was, yeah.  Silver Birch, Admission Ward.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Silver Birch.’
 
‘And how long were there?’
 
‘Acute mental ill, people with acute mental illness, I was there for a short while, for six month.’
 
‘And they ‘
 
 ‘I was examined by a doctor, doctor, and a psychiatrist spoke to me, and they gave me a thorough medical and said ‘No heart trouble, no high blood pressure, no loggertrigger[ph], just schizophrenia.  Same problem my paranoid schizophrenic, suffering very badly from mental illness which ended me going to prison.’
 
‘And what, med, what, what treatment did they suggest for you on that ?’
 
‘Oh they treated me Temazepam, Thioridazine injection every fortnight, Depixol injections every fortnight.  They gave me medication but there too many side effects with this medication.  I was taking sixteen tablets and it was making me feel dizzy, make, not making me feel, that I didn’t want to eat, I wasn’t getting hungry, I didn’t want to eat.  Not making me motivated to do things, to go to drama.  I just wanted to be left alone.  I had dribbling from my mouth, very embarrassing, taking too much medication and all those things had an effect on me and I was getting more and more confused, because the voices wouldn’t leave me.’
 
‘Even though ‘
 
‘All day long I used to hear voices, tormenting me, because of my schizophrenia and because of the state of mind I was in after I’d, nearly killed my wife.  That was playing on my mind.’
 
‘So even with the injections of Depixol you were still having voices?’
 
‘And yeah having side effects yes, dizziness.  I had two very very serious panic attacks when I was walking round the grounds and I was seeing people.  I went, I got into a right state the first time.  I just kept running, running, running with the panic attack, back to the ward, my ward, get into bed.  I wanted to lie down and rest, I did, I just, I had dreadful panic attack.  I thought I was going to collapse and die.  Just two I had, very serious ones.’
 
‘Had anything happened to bring that on’
 
‘No, it’s, they put me in bed… they called a doctor to come and see me and told me to go to bed and I slept the whole, whole evening and whole night and the next morning I wasn’t too bad.  I had two very bad attacks, panic attacks.’
 
‘It sounds terrifying.’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘It sounds really scary.’
 
‘But I should not have read those books on schizophrenia.  It scared me.’
 
‘When, when did you start reading those?’
 
‘I went to the library, and I saw this book of schizophrenia.  I thought ‘Oh I’ll read that for a change, just see what, what they have to say about schizophrenia.’  I started reading and then I got disturbed about people were suffering from this illness, confused me a bit, confused me.  I was reading about people who have suicidal tendencies, people who harmed themselves, people who cause trouble, who get violent and end up in mental hospitals because of their violent acts and then I got fed up and I stopped reading it.  I didn’t want to read all about it.’
 
‘So after you’d been on the acute ward ?’
 
‘Sorry, sorry dear, I just have ‘
 
‘Ok.’
 
‘The acute ward, yes, when I was admitted, yeah.’
 
‘Yeah, after you’d been on the acute ward, on Sil, Silver Birch, for about six months, where did they move you to then?’
 
‘They moved me to Beech Ward.’
 
‘What kind of ward was that?’
 
‘That’s with a locked ward.’
 
‘Still, locked?’
 
‘As well, as well, yeah.  Then they moved me to Cyprus Ward, a mixed ward, Cyprus, ten year, men and women, mixed ward, and then I moved to Larch Ward after a while, then to Rowan Ward, then to Elder Ward.  So I did go around the hospital.  I went through different ward, I did go around, and then finally in 1996 the consultant came up to me one day and said he’d like to have a meeting with me sometime, went into meeting, ‘and I might have good news for you, I, we’re hoping to discharge you, and you’ll be going to a care home.’  which was Leecroft which I was hoping to come to and that cheered me up a bit, that cheered me up.  The thought of leaving mental hospital and going out into the community and living with people who had experiences of mental illness and he gave me discharge, and that was a big interview [laughs] there were eight people around me and I was feeling very nervous and then the consultant said ‘I’ve got some good news for you Ken, you’re going to be discharged this morning, you going to a care home.’ and I said ‘Oh thank God for that.’  I was a bit cheerful, a bit happy, and then I came here.  I, I know everybody here quite well and I’ve settled here quite well, I’m happy here now.’
 
‘Great, we’ll, we’ll maybe talk about that ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘process of you being discharged and coming here ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘a bit later.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘I just wanted to go back a bit to you being in Napsbury, you were talking about institutionalised.’
 
‘Yes, many years there.’
 
‘Could you, I know you were on many different wards, but could you tell me what your typical day would be like at Napsbury, from the time you got up in the morning?’
 
‘Yes.  Wake up at quarter to eight in the morning, have wash, shave, dress up, be ready for breakfast nine o’clock, nine o’clock have breakfast, ten o’clock therapy, art, I used to do art, pottery and drama, different days of the week.  Then go back for lunch at twelve, have lunch, sit on the ward till two, had to be out of the dormitory, not, not in the dormitory, sit down in the lounge, in the TV room till two, then go to, again for, for, for therapy, come back at four, sit down and wait for dinner at six, half past five to six, dinner. Seven o’clock rest in the dormitory for an hour, seven to eight.  Eight o’clock Bingo, a man used to come and we used to play Bingo, not for money, no, no money, just small gift, sweets, sweets and drinks, for the winners, and the guy who, [laughs] who, who was in charge of Bingo made sure everybody got a present.  He was very good, he gave everybody a chance, so we used to win a slab of chocolate or bottle of coke, can of coke.  We played Bingo every day and it wasn’t too bad.  But I just didn’t like being in hos, in a mental hospital for all those years.’
 
‘What about the ?’
 
‘I considered them as wasted years of my life, wasted years.  Not being able to play cricket, not being able to live in the community, with all my friends around me and my family around me.  So I was quite bitter that I had spent many, many years in mental, two mental hospitals and prison sentence because of my mental health and I know my daughter was very concerned about me, she still is, Michelle.  She was so concerned about me when, when, this incident happened.  She, I kept saying to her that I was going to die in prison, I was going to pass away there, and then she said ‘Dad, it’s best that I don’t come and see you there, I’ll pray for you, and maybe one day we could see, we can, we can come, we can get together again.’  So that’s why I see her very frequently now, and I go to the place quite often, I see her and the grandchildren.’
 
‘When, when did you start seeing her again, was that when you ?
 
‘The grandchildren want a present and, she used to come on trolley, she used to come and see me twice, twice a month in Napsbury, but the last three years I’ve been seeing her regularly, while I’ve been living here, and I go, I can go to her place quite easily by transport and I spend more time with her now.’
 
‘But while you were in Napsbury she was regularly, ‘
 
‘Yes, twice a week, yes, she was very concerned about me, yeah.’
 
‘Did you have any other visitors while you were in Napsbury?’
 
‘Yes, my nephews, my sister-in-law and my nephews and nieces, they came to see me.  Not very often but now and again they’d come and see me.’
 
‘And when you had visitors in the hospital?’
 
‘I was pleased to see them yeah.’
 
‘Where would you ?’
 
‘I didn’t talk about any nonsense, I was very calm.  I used to just tell them that I, I was feeling a little bit better sometimes a bit worse, I get into moods, but generally I want to leave hospital as soon as possible and I want to be out in the community.’
 
‘Would they come and visit you on the ward, or would you go ?’
 
‘No, we used to meet, we used to meet downstairs, or, sorry, sorry no we used to sit on the ward, in the lounges, they were able to sit with me in the TV room and talk to me, yeah, and then I would spend a little time downstairs with them, talking to them outside, after a while, because there were a lot of people were very nosy, they want to know what’s going on.  They wanted to see somebody they’re after presents, money or presents or something, which was a very bad habit in Napsbury.  There were a lot of people not very well off financially, they used to borrow money or steal money or get whatever they can.  It was a bit unpleasant sometimes, I had to be rude to one or two guys and I had to leave and go downstairs with my, members of my family.  Some strange things go, go on in mental hospitals, a lot of fighting, quarreling, stealing.  Too much problem, too many problems.’
 
‘Just going back to your daily routine.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Where, where did you have your meals, did you have your meals on the ward?’
 
‘On the ward, on the ward, yeah.’
 
‘So you had a separate dining area?’
 
‘You, you had to queue up for meals, queue up for meals, yes, dining room.’
 
‘What was the food like?’
 
‘Not very good.  I’m very particular about my food, I had rice and curry, noodles and spaghetti bolognese.’
 
‘And they didn’t give you that?’
 
‘No [laughs]  We used to have fish and chips every Friday, but the meals were not very good.  I wasn’t very keen on them.  So now and again I would give one of the nurses some money to get me takeaway from the Chinese or Indian.  They look after me even though it was a hospital, I get a takeaway if I could spare a fiver, get a nice takeaway of rice and curry and have a nice meal.’
 
‘And would the nurses do that for you?’
 
‘Oh yes they would, yes.  There were, there were plenty that were very good.  There were a few guys there who I didn’t like.’
 
‘Staff?’
 
‘They, they kept talking about me being a schizophrenic, me being a, me being a psychopath.  I don’t know if they were joking or what but I didn’t like the way they spoke to me sometimes, about, the way my life, and what had happened between my wife and me, my second wife and me, and that used to niggle me and I used to just walk away from them.  I didn’t want to get into arguments, I just walked away.’
 
‘Was this with other patients, or was it staff?’
 
‘Patients and staff, two guys, two particular guys, staff, a Mauritian, Mauritian nurse and other guy was a Spanish nurse, he was, I didn’t like the Spanish guy.  He used to be very sarcastic, he used to say things which upset.  He didn’t like me very much, and I didn’t [laughs] like him so it was ok.’
 
‘Would you reply to him if he ?’
 
‘I, I did once, and I nearly got into a big argument with him and a quarrel and then I decided to just walk away and go for a walk around the grounds.  I didn’t want to get into any trouble.  I didn’t want any trouble after what had happened between me and my wife.  I didn’t want violence, I didn’t want any, any trouble, any more trouble because I was scared I could end up in prison again and I might go crazy and do something and end up there again.  So, I was ok.’
 
‘What would happen on the ward if patients, a couple of patients were fighting with each other?’
 
‘Oh, they used to come, they used to, they used to get, they used to get someone, nurses from other ward, what you call them’
 
‘Crash team, or ?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah, that’s right yeah.  They used to come.  One guy used to get up, pick up a chair and smash windows, he used to do it quite regularly, just smash windows, in smithereens, Bob Brown, he was really crazy, be was a nut, he was a real nutter he was, smash windows and all the women used to get scared and they used to run away from the room, he used to be really cray, he was really crazy with his smashing windows, then.’
 
‘What would they do about him?
 
‘They took him away for a while, they used to put him in, locked him up in Hartan[ph] ward, a locked ward, had to spend all his time in, on the ward.  But there’s a lot of stealing goes on in hospital, lot of stealing.’
 
‘Was that patients stealing from each other?’
 
‘Yes, Yes patients, that’s right,
 
‘Or was it ?’
 
‘Patients.’
 
‘Staff stealing?’
 
‘Patients doing it, to each other .’
 
‘So you had no locked, lockers or anything?
 
‘Locked, no, no, no, no, then’
 
‘What about, did you wear your own clothes?’
 
‘Yes, our own clothes, yeah.’
 
‘Right, right, and what about things like, who would do your washing for you?’
 
‘We had to do it once a week.’
 
‘And did you have a machine?’
 
‘We had help, we had help, there was a machine on the ward, yeah, and if ever I needed help one of the nurses, the lady, the girls would help me if I, if ever I wanted it.’
 
‘Did she change ?’
 
‘But most of the time I did it on my own.  I used to bathe every day, in the evenings, have a bath, and then I got psoriasis, look at my psoriasis, how bad it is.’
 
‘Oh my gosh.’
 
‘See how bad it is.’
 
‘mmm’
 
‘With my mental illness, all these, these things used to affect my body.  I’ve got very bad psoriasis.’
 
‘Do you think that’s from the medication?’
 
‘From stress, stress.’
 
‘Stress.’
 
‘All the stress I was under from my job and then medication as well.’
 
‘And did they treat your psoriasis while you were in Napsbury?’
 
‘They did, yes, they did, yes, yeah.’
 
‘Right, right.  So, sometimes in Napsbury you were on a, initially you were on a locked ward?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah, Silver Birch.’
 
‘And then you moved to an open ward?’
 
‘Yeah, that’s right.’
 
‘And you were allowed out into the grounds?’
 
‘Yes, you could walk around the grounds, yes.’
 
‘What about actually going out of the hospital?’
 
‘They didn’t mind us taking a walk down the King’s Road, which was just outside the hospital, if we wanted to go shopping, to get coffee or anything from the shops, cigarettes, they didn’t mind it, but you had to be back at a certain time.  If you went out at four you had to be back at, time for dinner at five, half past five, and then, then they, they weren’t too bad, they used to let us go out, but, in an open ward.  The lock wards no chance of going out.’
 
‘And when you used to go down to the King’s Road, did you go on your own, or did you ?’
 
‘I used to go with a friend of mine.’
 
‘And how, how were people outside?  Do you think they knew you’d come from Napsbury?’
 
‘Yes I think so yeah.’
 
‘And did they treat you differently?’
 
‘No, not really.  I used to, I used to go to the Post Office shop to get my money, my, my allowance every week, they were quite good.  I used to buy things there, sweets, coffee, chocolates, quite a few things, papers, newspapers.  They were quite good.   They knew that I was in Napsbury, I told them, they were alright.  Then if ever I wanted a good meal I get a takeaway which is nice, Chinese [laughs] or Indian.’
 
‘So the mon, the money you were going to cash was from a benefit?’
 
‘Everything down, for every week, forty-three pounds a week.’
 
‘And then did you keep your own money, or did you?’
 
‘It, it used to go into my account in, in the, in, in Accounts Department in Hospital.  I used to get my pension every month, sent to my, sent to the Hospital.  Then I used to draw five pounds a day for my expenses which was alright, I was getting my cigarettes with that money and having a little money for chocolates and sweets, and then I, if every I needed money from my account the doctor would give me a, a, would give me a, a note, a note to say that I could draw money from my account for my daughter.  I used to buy her presents, I used to get her perfume, birthday presents for, they gave me extra money, put my money in the account, which was not bad.’
 
‘So you felt actually quite in control of your own ‘
 
‘Yeah, yes.’
 
‘finances?’
 
‘Yes’
 
‘You were saying before that you used to spend the morning and the afternoon doing occupational therapy.’
 
‘Yes, OT, yeah.’
 
‘What, did you particularly like those things, because earlier you told me that in, I think in St. Bernard’s, you’d been doing art as well.’
 
‘I did art as well yeah.’
 
‘So did you ?’
 
‘We used to go out, used to go out in the open in St. Bernard’s but Napsbury it was all indoors, art, drama and, art, drama and, just, just help me, pottery, pottery, yeah.’
 
‘What did you, what ?
 
‘Bit boring, bit boring.’
 
‘What, which did you find boring, the pottery?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘What about the drama?’
 
‘I didn’t mind the drama, that was fun.  We used to have a few jokes in drama.’
 
‘Was that a big group of people?’
 
‘Big group, was six people and two, two staff.  Two OT therapists, not bad, it was alright.  Pottery was boring.’
 
‘What about the art?’
 
‘I, I wasn’t very good at art, but I didn’t mind it.’
 
‘What about sports?  Were you, did you play any sports?’
 
Oh, [inaudible] was cricket.’
 
‘Did you play?’
 
‘In summer, no I didn’t play, I watched it.  I used to go down to the field in Napsbury, they had a great big field, cricket field.  I used to go down Saturday afternoon and Sunday afternoon and watch cricket and I was dying to play.’
 
‘Who, who would be playing?’
 
‘Napsbury cricket team, Napsbury cricket team,’
 
‘Would that ?’
 
‘they used to have a cricket team.’
 
‘Right, was that patients?’
 
‘Staff, not the patients, staff, yeah.’
 
‘And they would be playing against other hospitals?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah, against Shenley, and against different hospitals around.’
 
‘But no patients?’
 
‘No patients, no, no.’
 
‘Did you ever, bring up the subject of, why couldn’t patients play cricket?’
 
‘I, I, yeah I mentioned it once, and they said ‘it’s not very safe because they could get injured.  Cricket’s a dangerous game’ [laughs] they said.  I know it’s dangerous because I had three accidents, my thumb, my nose and my cheekbone.  That’s because my eyesight was very bad, but then I went in for the, contact lenses, not contact lenses plastic lenses and I, I got back to being in top form again.’
 
‘So, so while, while you were in Napsbury what, what physical exercise did you have then?’
 
‘Oh, very, not very much.  We used to listed to music and just sat by our, what we used to do, listen to music and, oh, throw a ball around, throw a ball around, from one person to another.  We, mentioning our names and, just throwing the ball around, that’s all, no physical exercises, just, just, exercises for, for mental illness.’
 
‘Did you find that frustrating because you been quite an active man?’
 
‘Yes, yeah, that’s right yeah, I used to be very active when I was playing cricket.  I used to do a lot of running, keep, keeping fit.  Before I got mentally ill I used to be very happy playing cricket and keeping fit.  I watch a lot of cricket now on TV, England lost their match last week, in South Africa to a third rate team.  I don’t know what’s happened to English cricket.  England used to be the top country in the world for cricket.’
 
‘And you were very, so you, you renewed your interest in cricket at Napsbury?’
 
‘Oh yes, yeah.’
 
‘By going to watch the ‘
 
‘That’s right yes.’
 
‘And patients were allowed to do that?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Did you find any other patients who were interested in cricket?’
 
‘There was a drawing master, old guy I knew, he, he used to go and watch cricket with me and there was another guy, oh what was his name, Tom Ronan[ph] he was a big guy, six foot four, nineteen stone, huge guy he was, I was very friendly with him, he was interested in cricket so I used to go down and show them, sit down there quietly for two and a half hours, from two o’clock to half past four and watch the cricket.  Then go back, back to the ward for dinner, then go back again to the cricket field, I watched them play till half past seven, which was quite good.  They didn’t mind us going out to watch cricket, in an open ward, but on a locked ward is not allowed to go out.  Only, only one hour, hour out that’s all, you’ve got to stay indoors, which I did for quite a long time.’
 
‘What was the atmosphere like on one of those locked wards?’
 
‘Sorry, sorry, say that again.’
 
‘What was the atmosphere like on the locked ward?’
 
‘Oh it was a bit nerve wracking.  Sometimes people would start screaming and shouting and saying ‘I want to get out, I want to go out, I want to go out.’ and then noises, people making noises.  It was just horrible being on a locked ward.’  No freedom, no freedom.’
 
‘On those locked wards, did you have your own room or did they have dormitories?’
 
‘Dormitories, dormitories.’
 
‘What was that like sleeping in the dormitory?’
 
‘Oh, all the men going up to bed at half past nine at night.  All marching up the stairs with two nurses.  Changing, tucking into bed, not knowing what’s going to happen during the night.  Not knowing what’s going, people going to start stealing or fighting or quarreling or dying.’
 
‘Is that, is that ?’
 
‘Two, two blokes died next to my bed, John Middleton and Ron Ainsley.’
 
‘How did they die?’
 
‘Both died in their sleep.’
 
‘Gosh that was ‘
 
‘Ron Ainsley passed away next to my bed and then, when I moved to another ward, there was John Middleton, he was not well at all, he had serious mental health problems and then he, he got very ill, and the doctors were quite concerned about him and unfortunately, he was next to my bed and then two o’clock in the morning he, he passed away.  They found him dead and we were all, we all woke up and I was feeling bad that he did, he had died, and then, I went to his funeral, I went to the two friends of mine funeral and that Saturday I kept saying to myself ‘God, I’m going to be the next one to be dead.’  That’s all I ever thought about in Napsbury, being dead.’
 
‘So those deaths were really feeding ‘
 
‘Scared me.  Yes that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘into your own fears?’
 
‘Yeah.  But I was always reassured that I had no heart trouble and then what the consultants all told me I was a paranoid schizophrenic because of what had happened in my life, about my breakdowns in my job and what went wrong with my two marriages, you know, the deaths of my first wife and then incident with my second wife after my second mental illness, all those things.’
 
‘But you still had the fear that something terrible might happen to you?’
 
‘I think so, yeah.  Sometimes I kept thinking I’ll die here.  Every night I go to bed, yeah, I think I be dead in the morning, that I will die in my sleep.  I don’t know, it’s just a phobia, just something in my mind.  The voices saying me, that I could die from schizophrenia, that it’s possible to die.  And one time it was saying to me to harm myself, the voices, to end it all, to finish with it and to rest in peace forever, with no men, no ment, no more torments of mind with voices.’
 
‘Was this still going on for you while you were in Napsbury?’
 
‘Oh yes.’
 
‘The voices?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Do you think ?’
 
‘I was in a locked ward thinking all the time about, the voices telling me I’m going to die.’
 
‘And were you able to tell the doctors?’
 
‘I told the doctors, yeah.’
 
‘That the voices were that bad?’
 
‘And they say ‘It’s not true.  You should tell these voices to just get away.  Drive them out of your mind.  You’ve got to try.  You’ve got to help yourself.’
 
‘And did you ever ?’
 
‘We are doing all for you we can for you, you got to help yourself.  If ever you hear voices, just tell them to go away, leave you alone.’
 
‘And did you try that?’
 
‘I tried that and it succeeded sometimes, it did succeed, for a while.  But it kept coming back to me again, and then they put me on Prozac, a drug they use in America for mental illness, people with mental illness and unfortunately that drug didn’t help me it was have, I was having side effects.’
 
‘What, what kind of side effects were you having?’
 
‘Dizzy spells, voice, more voices, more voices telling me strange things, about why am I the second time, the punishment of me marrying a second time, was going to be very severe, I should not have married her, another girl after my first wife’s death.  I should have just stayed single and had Michelle with me and my mum and not gone and ever got married a second time.  The voices keep saying I was a fool for being married a second time, because I didn’t know what was going to happen in my job, and the voices kept tormenting me, night after night.’
 
‘That sounds ‘
 
‘Very little sleep in the hospital, some nights, very little sleep.’
 
‘That sounds very difficult to cope with.’
 
‘Drinking water and going to the toilet, all day long, all night long.’
 
‘And would the nurses notice that you ?’
 
‘The did, oh yes, they used to tick me off.’
 
‘They used to tell ‘
 
‘Walking about, two, three, four o’clock in the morning, walking around.  They used to tick me off.  They said ‘Come on, get back into bed Ken, you’re, you’re going to keep walking all night.’  I used to say ‘I can’t sleep, please give me some tablets.’ and they, they wouldn’t give me more tablets.  I was hook, hooked on medication, I was.  I felt I had to have medication to sleep.’
 
‘So, at night, would you, in the dormitory, would you have curtains between the beds, so did you have a little bit of privacy?’
 
‘Yes, yes, that was not, that was alright, yes, curtains.’
 
‘But you didn’t have any locked lockers?’
 
‘No, no, no.  So there was quite a lot of stealing going on.  I didn’t lose much money.  I lost fifteen quid.  But the thought of, you know, losing the money was not very nice, you could have done with a few pounds in hospital, a little extra money for chocolates and sweets and cigarettes.’
 
‘And at night, did you have to stay in the dormitory area?  You couldn’t go downstairs?’
 
‘No you had to stay in the dormitory area, yeah.’
 
‘And the nurses?’
 
‘I used to go to the smoking room, which I used to do, with Michael.  I got a friend here now, who stays here, Michael, I have known him for twenty years.  I spent most of my time in hospital close to him, with him on the same ward, and when we moved, we moved together as well.  So that was nice.  He’s living here now.  I got a few friends here, people I knew in Napsbury.  So it’s a bit easier for me now.’
 
‘Yes.  So you and Michael used to go to the smoking rooms sometimes?’
 
‘That’s right yeah, yeah.’
 
‘And did you find, when you were in Napsbury, were you smoking more than before?’
 
“I was, yes.  I suffer from a bit of a nervous disorder and I find smoking helps me calm down, makes me relax sometimes, and I do enjoy a cigarette, although I know it’s not good for me, it’s bad.  I’m hooked on cigarettes now, I need cigarettes.’
 
‘And when you were in Napsbury where did you buy the cigarettes from?’
 
‘From the shop in the hospital, hospital shop.’
 
‘Where was that, was that outside the main building?’
 
‘That was, that was near the Accounts Department, just near the entrance to the hospital, just as you enter the hospital, just as you enter the hospital, about twenty-five yards away.  Nice shop.  We used to all go there in the morning for our fags and sweets and drinks.’
 
‘What could you buy there then, cigarettes?’
 
‘Cigarettes, papers, magazines, chocolates, postcards, postcard, stamps.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Quite a nice shop.’
 
‘Good.  Have you ?’
 
‘Napsbury’s closed down, you know that, now.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘They closed in Mar, was it March?  March, end of March, closed down.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Thank God for that.  I’ll never go back there again.’
 
‘No, you won’t have to.’
 
‘No way.’
 
‘No.  You told me before about St. Bernard’s that they used to have discos?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
“Did anything like that happen at Napsbury?’
 
‘Oh yes.  That’s, that’s quite true, that is, once a month, and they were quite enjoyable.  We used to go in a crowd, all of us, when I was on the, on Cyprus ward, on a mixed ward, about, there were about ten, twenty of us go down together, men and women.  There were a lot of women on Cyprus ward, it was mixed ward.  We used to go have a few drinks, soft drinks, some food, dancing till nine o’clock at night, seven o’clock to nine o’clock, which was good, two hours.  I enjoyed that.’
 
‘When ?’
 
‘And I did enjoy Christmas in Napsbury, as I told you earlier on.’
 
‘Yes, you ‘
 
‘Christmas was good.  All the carols, Christmas carols, getting, buying presents, talking to relatives, to my daughter, to my sister-in-law, she’d be in touch with them, and then, we’re really looking forward to Christmas morning, Christmas Day morning and going to spend the day with my daughter, all those things I used to look forward to.  So it wasn’t all that bad sometimes.  I had my good days.  Had a lot of off days but still good days.
 
‘Did you spend some Christmas’s in Napsbury?’
 
‘I did, yeah.’
 
‘What was that like, spending Christmas in the hospital?’
 
‘Oh, away from my family is a bit, bit, bit depressing for me, I wanted to be with my family, amongst my family members.  This is when I was very seriously ill and I couldn’t cope outside, I couldn’t go out, but I did, I did become, I did get to see my daughter quite frequently after a while, and then I used to spend, after a few years, I used to spend Christmas Day with my daughter.  For the first few years I didn’t, I, I spent it in Napsbury, but after a few years I started visiting my daughter at home and she used to prepare me a lovely, lovely, Christmas lunch, Christmas dinner, turkey, which I like turkey, but I’m a rice and curry fan really, I like rice and curry.’
 
‘I was going to say to you, did you have curry for your Christmas dinner?’
 
‘Oh, for my party, for my birthday party, I used to have, I used to spend a hundred pounds out of my pocket, for a, for a meal for everybody, and they used to buy drinks and food and, have a nice birthday party for me, that’s, they used to do some nice things as well.’
 
‘What, in the hospital?’
 
‘In the hospital, yeah, which was good.’
 
‘Would you do that on the ward?’
 
‘On the ward, yeah, on the ward, very nice.’
 
‘And would, would many patients do that kind of thing?’
 
‘No, no, not really, no.  I was very generous when I was in hospital.  I had a bit of money behind me.  When my mum, my father left me some money, so I spent hundred pounds every year on my birthday, for food and drinks for everybody.  I didn’t mind it.  I enjoy it.’
 
‘Sounds lovely/’
 
‘And my birthday’s coming up in January.  Thirty-first of January I be sixty-three year’s old.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Getting on a bit now.’
 
‘Well.  [both laugh]  and, sorry I can’t, got a bit like, you, you were saying to me earlier on that you found it very easy to get on with people, when you were young?’
 
‘When I was young, yes.’
 
‘Then it seemed, that when you went to prison, you, and also when you were in St. Bernard’s, you were quite isolated, you were finding it much more difficult?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
[Both spoke together, interviewer inaudible]
 
‘Then I was suffering from schizophrenia, I was suffering from mental illness.’
 
‘What about when you were in Napsbury, how did you find getting on with other patients?’
 
‘I got on very well with some people, some people were very, very friendly, very, very helpful, and yet there were others who were not helpful, not friendly.  People would talk about being schizophrenic, about being a something murderer, about being a psychopath, about being evil, all those horrible things they used to say, and then I got to the stage where I just walk away when anybody started talking to me about those things I just walked away and, just went out.  But I had friends there who were very nice.  I had lots of lady friends, quite, I daydream, nice, lovely people.  Lots of women in hospital which I was surprised to see.  There’re quite a lot of women in mental hospital.  In Napsbury there about fifty-fifty I would say.’
 
‘And did you have any particular sort of girl friend or anything?’
 
‘No, I had, just a friend, Mar, Marie, I used to go out with Marie, buy her chocolates, give her fags, go out to dinner now and again, then she used to treat me, she used to treat me, she treated me to a few meals.  So we exchange friendships, a good friend of mine, nothing serious, never got anything serious.’
 
‘You used to go out from the hospital?’
 
‘Yes, down King’s Road, to get, to get take-away, sometimes, and sometimes the staff would go for us, which was good.
 
‘I remember you telling me that when you were in Sri Lanka.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘You were very into cinema and films.’
 
‘Oh yeah.’
 
‘What happened to that interest?  Like, when you were in Napsbury did you ever go to the pictures?’
 
‘Just once.  We went by coach to see Robin Hood, just once.  That’s the only film I ever saw, but I used to watch a lot of films on TV on the ward.  Sometimes I would spend time to about two, three in the morning watching films on TV.’
 
‘And did the night staff?’
 
‘We told the night staff, they didn’t mind it.  As long as I didn’t stay all night back, in the, in the lounge, in the tea-rooms.  They didn’t mind if there was a good film on I wanted to watch, they didn’t mind.  So in between watching the film, I would go to the smoking room [laughs] with Michael, have a quick smoke and then back to see the film again.’
 
‘That doesn’t sound too bad then, does it?’
 
‘Yes, up and down, we had some good times and some bad times.’
 
‘Tell, tell me about some of the bad times.’
 
‘Oh, the two mental illnesses, horrible times.’
 
‘Some of the bad times ‘
 
‘It’s schizophrenia.’
 
‘ in Napsbury.’
 
[Andy whispers ‘Sorry - bye bye’]
 
‘You off, bye bye Andy.  Bad time were yeah, [door shuts] about worrying, bout worrying about dying from schizophrenia.  The phobia I’ve always had in my mind.  I’m a bit, dying from my illness.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘And yet, getting reassurance from people, and the psychiatrists said that people don’t normally die from schizophrenia.’
 
‘Did you believe them Ken, when they were telling you this, that you don’t, did you ?’
 
‘Sometimes I think they were, they were, they were bluffing me.  I used to keep thinking they were bluffing me, but because I, I’ve seen and heard of so many people die from schizophrenia, who have heart attacks and collapse and die or commit suicide, people who commit suicide and die.’
 
‘Did that happen when you were in Napsbury, did you ?’
 
‘Yeah, three suicides.  Jean, a young girl of twenty-one, committed suicide, Mark Beath[ph], young boy of twenty-four and a lady.  There were three suicides when, when I was in Napsbury.’
 
‘And how did the staff deal with that, did they talk to you about what had happened?’
 
‘They did yes, yes.’
 
‘So it seems like you, you actually got on ok with the staff there?’
 
‘Some of the staff yes, there were just two, two staff members that I, I, I wasn’t very keen on, I had problems with them.’
 
‘Yes, yeah, the Spanish guy and the Mauritian.’
 
‘Yes, yes, but otherwise the staff there, the sister in charge of the ward was a Spanish sister, Sister Margaret, she was very, very helpful, very good, very helpful.  She took me to France three times.’
 
‘Took you to France?’
 
‘Yes, a day trip out, not just me, but quite a lot of, quite a lot of patients.  Went by coach to Dover, then across the ferry to Calais, then to Boloigne and return at night time, about twelve midnight we were back in hospital, which was quite enjoyable.  So I did enjoy a few things in hospital.  Christmas ‘
 
‘How ?’
 
‘Sorry, Christmas, then the trips the France, I enjoyed those.’
 
‘How did you find that, going so far away from the hospital?’
 
‘I did alright, but I was in company, I had people around me.  I could never do it on my own.  I couldn’t do it on my own, I’d be too scared, but I, there were lots of people on, on the coach and I enjoy it, good, good day out.’
 
‘And you did that ?’
 
‘Made a nice change.’
 
‘You did that a few times?’
 
‘Yes, yes.’
 
‘Brilliant.’
 
‘And of course ‘
 
‘Where else, did they take you anywhere else?’
 
‘We used to go to Wembley to see the Ice Shows, Christmas time, Ice Show, I saw Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Cinderella, then the skaters, American skaters… oh that, that was very good.  So I had some fairly good times as well, but generally being in a mental hospital upset me, being there.’
 
‘What did you, you told me that originally you’d gone in there, just, you thought, for a year or two.’
 
‘Yes, well I did think, yeah.’
 
‘When, it, the time was getting longer and longer and longer, what did you think was going to happen?’
 
‘I was getting fed up and cheesed off and miserable.  I was so bored with life, I can’t leave this hospital alive.  ‘Why are they keeping me here so long, I must get better one day.  Did I want to get better.  I want to get rid of my, my mental illness, my voices, all these mental problems.’
 
‘Did you feel things were changing for you over that seventeen years, did you feel that you were actually beginning to get a bit better?’
 
‘Yeah I did after seventeen, after about seventeen year, yeah, I did yeah.  I kept saying ‘Oh God, I must leave hospital one day’ and they told me I could discharge myself whenever I liked but it’d be against medical advice, because I wasn’t on a section, they didn’t section me after what I’d done to my wife.  They said ‘You’re informal, if you want to go, you go, but that’s your problem, anything happens they’re not to blame.  It’s your problem, if anything happens, you can’t blame the hospital, because you’re informal.’  So three times I signed the form, I discharged myself and I went home because I was fed up of being in hospital.  I couldn’t, I couldn’t, live in a mental hospital, and then three times I had to go back, back to hospital, after a while, I had to go back.’
 
‘You went back yourself?’
 
‘I couldn’t cope outside, I couldn’t cope, I had to go back to Napsbury.’
 
‘Were you trying to cope by yourself?‘
 
‘I was trying, yes, I was trying.  My mum was trying to help me, and then, when my mum died that was it.  That was the last straw for me, I had to go back to hospital, for I had no one to, to care for me, to look after me, my mum, my mum was getting old, you see.  She was eighty-two when she died.  If she had lived she’d be ninety-two now.  She was getting on in years, and I was a burden on her, with my illness and all my worries and all my problem, mental health.  I was a bit of a burden on her, I was really affecting her, and I was sorry that I was to blame for, not for her death but, for, causing her all those problems over the years with mental illness.’
 
[End of DVCPro Tape 3 – VHS Tape 1 continues]

[Start of DVCPro Tape 4]
 
‘You were in Napsbury?’
 
‘Yes, I got permission to go on holiday.’
 
‘Right, ok.’
 
‘I told the doctor that I needed a holiday very badly.’
 
‘Right, I, I’ll ask about ‘
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘this in a minute ‘
 
‘Ok, yeah.’
 
‘We’ll do that on the tape ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘because I think that’s really important.’
 
‘Ok.’
 
‘Let me just, check myself in place.  Ok.  Ok Ken.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘You told me that you went to France a few times from Napsbury.’
 
‘yeah.’
 
‘And that you went to the Ice Shows at Wembley.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Did you have any other period when you left the hospital at all, during, you said you sometimes used to go home?’
 
‘I discharged myself three times, but I was only back home for a few days.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘With my mum, and then I had to go back to hospital, I went back.’
 
‘Right, what about, earlier on, you said to me that sometimes you used to go home at weekends?’
 
‘Yeah, that was alright.  Friday nights to Monday morning.’
 
‘And was that staying with your mum?’
 
‘Yes, staying with my mum, yeah, but after my mum died I could, I didn’t go anywhere, I was in hospital all the time.  That was from 1989 to 1997.’
 
‘So from eighty-nine to ninety-seven?’
 
‘I was in hospital.’
 
‘And you didn’t leave?’
 
‘No.’
 
‘You didn’t go anywhere else?’
 
‘No, nowhere, no.  I had nowhere to go to, I had nowhere.  I had, my house was sold, I don’t, my, I didn’t have my house to go to, I’d lost contact with my, my, my, my ex-wife, so I had nowhere to live, I had nowhere.’
 
‘What about your brothers and sisters, where were they at this time?’
 
‘My brother was, my elder brother was dead against me coming, giving me a room in his house, he didn’t want me to stay with him, my younger brother was in Australia, my sister was Australia and I had nobody who would give me a room or nobody was prepared to look after me, so I stayed in the hospital, I stayed in Napsbury till ninety-seven and then I came here, I got my discharge.’
 
‘I think earlier on, you mentioned something to me that you’d been to Australia, while you were in Napsbury?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘How did that come about?’
 
‘I had some money behind me, saved up, and I told the doctors that I needed a holiday very badly would they kindly give permission for me to go to Australia to see my younger brother and my sister, and they said ‘No problem, you can go, but make sure you take your medication, and you have your injections every fortnight.  We’ll give you a supply and you can take them, but you’ve got to take your medication, and don’t go swimming in Australia, it’s not good to go swimming with mental illness, you could run into problems, with the swimming.’  So I promised that I would be ok, and then I had a six month’s holiday in Australia.’
 
‘Really.’
 
‘I had a lovely, I had a great time there, lots of fun with my younger brother.  He took me around in his car, around Melbourne, shopping, went to the zoo, having barbecues out, went to the races, horse races, going, going out for parties.’
 
‘Brilliant.’
 
“He was very helpful, he was really good to me, my younger brother.’
 
‘And did you ?’
 
‘And my sister, I was happy to see my sister, she was great.’
 
‘And did you live with your brother?’
 
‘I did, I did.’
 
‘With his family?’
 
‘I did, yes.  He’s married to a very nice girl.  He’s very well off.  I’m happy for him, I’m really happy for him.  So I did have a holiday.   Nice place.’
 
‘Six months?’
 
‘Yes, six months.’
 
‘Were you surprised when the doctors said you could go?’
 
‘I was, I thought that they’d turn me down.  I told them I needed a holiday very badly, where, I didn’t have a holiday for about, what, ten, twelve years, never had a holiday, I wanted a break, and they were very good.  You see I got to take my medication with me and my, have my injections, which I, I did.’
 
‘Did that feel ok to you?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘To take the medication?’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘You were ok about that?’
 
‘I was ok, yeah,  I did, no, I didn’t take any overdoses or anything, nothing.  I was alright, I was quite calm.’
 
‘So that was quite an adventure then,’
 
‘It was, yeah.’
 
‘to go from Napsbury ‘
 
I saw ’
 
‘to Australia.’
 
‘I saw two test matches in Australia, cricket, England versus Australia.  Australia beat England [laughs].  Oh, I went to Melbourne, Melbourne Stadium, there were about, 60,000 people there, watching the cricket.  I was there, with my brother, and then I went to Sydney and saw a test match in Sydney.  Great, I was so happy seeing cricket again.’
 
‘It seems wherever you’ve been in the world ‘
 
‘There’s cricket.’
 
‘Is cricket.’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Which is lovely.  Great.  How did you find coming back from Australia?’
 
‘Oh, I, I wasn’t happy to come back.  I wanted to stay there.  I thought, ‘No, I, I’m not going back to go back into hospital again’ and it was a bit nervewracking for me, bit nervewracking coming back and going back to hospital, after all the enjoyment I had in Australia, seeing my brother and my sister and friends.  So I came back.  I had a nice time.’
 
‘Did you, did you, in that six months, were there any times when you felt,’
 
‘Sometimes.’
 
‘that you’d miss the hospital actually, that you’d miss the security?‘
 
‘I did sometimes, a little bit, sometimes, just some, just odd times.  I thought ‘Oh, I’m missing the hospital, I, I need to be in hospital, I need to be [inaudible]’ and in the next minute I’d think ‘Oh no, I’m not going back to hospital’, just thoughts, to go back or not to go back, this come, in my mind, stayed in my mind.’
 
‘But you never felt that got out of control, or anything?’
 
‘No, no, no, no.’
 
‘That sounds, sounds brilliant, and then when you came back, so you just came back to the hospital and you fitted in again?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Did you, in the hospital, were there other people from India or Sri Lanka or Pakistan?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘In Napsbury?’
 
‘Lot of West Indian, Greeks, Irish, lots of Irish, Scottish, a few Scottish, few Spanish, few Chinese, few West Indian, different nationalities.’
 
‘Yeah.  Were there any other Sri Lankans?’
 
‘Another, let me see, there was a girl who I knew, she was in there just for a short while, just one I think, just one, the, the girl.  She was there just for a short while, she had prob, problems in her marriage and she got ill, or had to be admitted to the hospital, so, I met her there.’
 
‘Did you ever feel there was any problems at all around you being Sri Lankan, you know?’
 
‘No, no, no.’
 
‘That people treated you differently?’
 
‘No, no, no.  No, no, I was always at home, felt at home.  No I never had anybody say anything, no.’
 
‘So it’s just a liking for curry.’
 
‘Yes, yeah, just a liking for curry [laughs]’
 
‘Ok, great.  You told me that, in prison, it had been very important to you that the Chaplain ‘
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Had kept in close contact with you.’
 
‘Yes, very important, oh yes.’
 
‘What happened about your faith when you were in Napsbury?’
 
‘I used to see the catholic priest practically every day, he used to come and see me, Father Ennis, Irish priest.  I think every day off his bike he came to see me and talk to me for five, ten minutes, give me his blessings, give me his blessings, told me to, drive the voices away, ‘tell the voices to go away, you gonna be all right, go to church, say your prayers every night, every morning, receive Communion on Sundays, and you are, you’re going to be ok again.’  and he was a good priest, I miss him now, he’s, he left Napsbury, he went back to Ireland.  He was seventy years old when he retired.  A great priest, roman catholic priest.’
 
‘Was he there for the whole seventeen years that you were there?’
 
‘He was there, yeah.  He wor, he worked there in the ch, in the, in the church.’
 
‘And you saw ‘
 
‘He was a parish priest.’
 
‘And you saw him every day.’
 
‘Yes, every day, Father Ennis, every day.’
 
‘That’s a really important ‘
 
‘Oh, I was so happy to see him here, gave me a lot of comfort, reassurance.’
 
‘And were you still reading the Bible at this stage?’
 
‘I was, yeah.  I used to read Genesis, quite a lot of Genesis, the beginning, the Creation. [Rooks or ravens cawing outside]  I was interested, very interested in the Bible.  I would say I’ve been a good Roman Catholic, good practicing Catholic, but I do believe in God, I do believe in the angels, in Mother Mary.  I believe in Christmas, Jesus’ birth and Christmas.’
 
‘It’s interesting that you were reading a lot about the Creation.’
 
‘Yes, yes, Genesis.’
 
‘It’s like, almost creating a new,
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘new life.’
 
‘That’s right, how we all came into this world, ‘bout Adam and Eve, the Creation, and then the, the, Cain and Abel.’
 
‘In the hospital, did they have a chapel or something?’
 
‘They had a chapel, yeah.  Very nice.  I used to go quite regularly, sometimes during the day when I was doing nothing, I would just walk out of the ward, when I was on, on the open ward, just walk out, just go to the church for a few minutes, sit down and say a few prayers, then go back to my ward, then the priest would see me, later on, every day.’
 
‘And what, what was special about going to the chapel?’
 
‘Just, just for comfort, just as, make a few prayers to God, just a few words to Jesus, asking forgiveness, forgiving my wife for what she done, about her marrying someone else.  She’s married now, my wife, she married, married the bloke who she, she, she was having the affair with and divorced me.  I say forgive her, I wish her a long happy life, I’m not a cruel person, I don’t wish her any bad, any evil, I hope she’s happy with him now.  That’s her, her problem now, she’s got him now and not me anymore, so that’s alright.’
 
‘How did you find out that she’d got married?’
 
‘It, it was tough, my daughter told me, she, my daughter got to know, I just told you, she got to know.’
 
‘Right.  Does Michelle keep in touch with her at all?’
 
‘No, no, no.  Both of us we’ve lost complete touch with her.  I don’t want to know any more about her.  I love her still but I don’t see her.  It be too much for me if I see her.’
 
‘Right.  So it seems like the church was still very important to you in Napsbury?’
 
‘It was, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Quite a, a stabilising ‘
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘ thing for you.’
 
‘Yeah.  You know, the thought of being in a mental hospital, all the things that go on in hospital, you know.  Just a few minutes away from hospital in a church, few prayers, talking to the priest helped.’
 
‘Was there anywhere else in the hospital where you could just get that little period of silence?’
 
‘The library.  It was in the hospital premises, I go there, pop in there, pick up a nice book, not books on schizophrenia, but books on cricket, on sport and Beginners Book of Records, that’s a good book Beginners Book of Records, I used to read that.  Take a lot of interest in, mainly sport.’
 
‘And could you take ‘
 
‘for reading.’
 
‘Could you take the books back to the ward?’
 
‘You could, yeah, you could.’
 
‘So did you, you used to spend quite a lot of time in the library?’
 
‘Like the library, yes, and a little bit of time in the church every day, a few, few minutes, five, ten minutes and Sunday Service, an hour, receive Communion every Sunday, and the priest gave me a rosary, gave me a lovely rosary which I’ve, which I still have, I put it under my pillow and I pray to Our Lady, and there’s something I want to do, not just yet but in the near future, I want to go to Lourdes in France and I would like to bathe in the Holy Water, and pray to Our Lady for all the, Our Lady done for me, to get me well again, to get me into a Home, to be getting me out of prison alive, to get me out of the mental hospital alive and in the Home kept, a, a care home and to thank Jesus for, for, for sparing my life, for all the prayers I said thank Jesus for say, for keeping me alive and if I should die soon I hope God will forgive me for what I did, because I, I really believe in forgiveness, I believe in it very much.’
 
‘So is that one of your hopes ’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘ in the future, to go to Lourdes?’
 
‘Yes, yeah.  I hope that when I die I go to heaven, that’s where I want, to go to heaven and find paradise, and be with my mum and my first wife, be with them, in, in Paradise.’
 
‘Yes, yes, yes.’
 
‘I had a pretty, sad life, in England.  I love England so much and yet I keep thinking ‘Oh, what, what has happened to me in England, why does this thing happen to me.’  I ask questions, I, my mind keeps saying ‘Why did that, why did all these things happen to me, what mental mental illness twice in my life.  Why am I so scared of dying from schizophrenia.’  All those things keep troubling me sometimes.’
 
‘Do you think those fears have got any less, now you’re actually not in the hospital?’
 
‘Yeah, yes, definitely, yeah, yeah.  It has.  In hospital I used to think about it all the time, it’s got less now, because I’m not in hospital any more.  I’m in a care home, nice people who work here, people who help us.  I’ve got friends here, people I know, so I’m a lot better off here than in hospital.  It’s eased, eased quite a bit, but the voices must leave me alone, the voices.’
 
‘Do you still hear the voices?’
 
‘Sometimes, yeah.’
 
‘And are you still on medication?’
 
‘Yes, yes, that’s right.’
 
‘And you still have injections?’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘But you didn’t have any more ECT or any other treatments?’
 
‘No more, no more, I would never have it again, no way.’
 
‘In, in Napsbury were you able to discuss your ‘
 
‘I did.’
 
‘ worries about ECT?’
 
‘I was, yeah.’
 
‘And did they take that on board, they listened?’
 
‘They did, it’s all down, written down in my notes, that I’ve had ECT, it didn’t help me, it made me worse, it made me take more tablets, it made me go home when I was ill, it made me do something to my wife who provoked me, my wife who didn’t want me in the house any more, who wanted a divorce and then me hurting her and all those things, I’d never ever take ECT again.  That was my down fall, the ECT they gave me, that was the thing that changed me completely.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘I’m very bitter about human beings being given ECT, they should stop it, they should ban ECT.  They shouldn’t give it to people.  I know they keep saying it helps some people, it helps some people, but I don’t agree with it.  I don’t think that you should be put on a bed and send electric shocks through the brain, I don’t think that’s, that’s right.’
 
‘Yeah, and I think it’s very important you’re able to say that in this Testimony video.‘
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Because that’s your experience.’
 
‘Yes, because it made me so ill, so ill.’
 
‘So it was good really that in your seventeen years at Napsbury they didn’t  ’
 
‘Yes, no.’
 
‘ give you that.’
 
‘Never suggest, suggested it, never asked me if I wanted it again, that was good.  I was on medication and injections in Napsbury.’
 
‘And by this time were you ok with the medication.’
 
‘Yes, I was having a few side, side effects, dizziness and side effects, not eating, no appetite, side effects, yeah, but not now.  I’m a lot better than what I was.  I would like to say that I’m much better now than what I was, because I’m not in hospital any more.  I’m in the community now.  I can walk up the High Street, go shopping, buy clothes, have a coffee out, go to the Indian Restaurant for dinner, go to the pub with a friend of mine for a pint of coke.  I’ve never ever taken to drink, never in my life.  Drink killed my brother last year.  My brother was a heavy drinker and a heavy smoker and he passed away last year because of his drinking and smoking and I am never ever going to taste a whisky or any alcohol.  I’m quite happy with a pint of coke.’
 
‘So even when you were young you didn’t drink?’
 
‘No, never, never, never.  I started smoking quite late in life, quite late.  No, no, I wasn’t a smoker when I was young, I started when I was about twenty-five, twenty-six.’
 
‘Was that when you were working?’
 
‘Yes, when working, yeah.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Very expensive, fags, now.’
 
‘Very expensive.’
 
‘Very expensive, three pound sixty for a packet of twenty.’
 
‘It’s an expensive habit.’
 
‘Very expensive, almost everybody here smokes, in this house.’
 
‘I think people who’ve been in psychiatric hospitals do smoke.’
 
‘Yes, that’s true.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘That’s quite true.’
 
‘So, you spent seventeen years ‘
 
‘In, in a ‘
 
‘ in Napsbury?’
 
‘In Napsbury yes
 
‘Its an awful ‘
 
‘Long time.’
 
‘It’s a really long, long time.’
 
‘A long time.’
 
‘Looking back on that time .’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘How do you think of that experience as seventeen years, do you think it was ok?  Do you think it was a good experience?’
 
‘No.’
 
‘Do you think it was bad?’
 
‘I don’t think it was a good experience, it was a bit of a nightmare for me spending all those years in a mental hospital.  The thought of being in a mental hospital was upsetting for me because I didn’t want to be classed as a mentally sick person or a, a, really paranoid schizophrenic, I didn’t like those terms, and the more I read about them the worse I used to feel, by reading.’
 
‘Right, so was it more that you didn’t feel happy inside yourself about it?’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Rather than that the environment of the hospital was very bad?  Was it more that you actually didn’t feel comfortable?’
 
‘Yes, yeah, that’s right, yeah.’
 
‘Rather than that you didn’t like the nurses, or you didn’t like the ward?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah, no that’s what I felt.’
 
‘Right, right, right.  Did you have any nurses that you particularly got on with.’
 
‘Oh yes, Sean O’Toole, Irish nurse.  He was fantastic.’
 
‘Tell, tell me about him.’
 
‘Oh, I used to joke with him.  He was a cricket fan, like me.  We used to watch cricket together and he used to talk cricket with me, and he was great and I liked him very much, and Norman Taylor, an English nurse, he was a great sports fan as well.  So I had a, we had a lot in common, talking about cricket, football.  I got on quite well with them.  Yes, I’ve had some good friends there, staff and a few, few patients.  Yeah.’
 
‘Good.  That sounds very encouraging that ‘
 
‘Napsbury, I’ll never forget Napsbury, I’ll never forget Napsbury.’
 
‘I bet you won’t after seventeen years there.’ [both laugh]
 
‘After seventeen years.’
 
‘So tell me what happened then when they talked, started talking about discharging you.’
 
‘Yes.  The doctors told me one day, and he told me, asked me how I felt, and I said ‘Not too bad doctor.’  I said ‘Doctor I’d like a discharge very soon’ and he said ‘I see.’  I said ‘Yeah, I’m feeling a lot better now’ I said and he said ‘Ok, we’ll have a meeting next week’ and he gave me a surprise when he, when he gave me the discharge.  I was so happy in, in my mind, and I felt so happy within myself that I was going to leave hospital and this time for good, never to go back again.  To be out of hospital and start living again, and living, living, and not dying or not talk about death, the, the thing that were on my mind for all those years.  Start living, for my daughter, my family, my children, for my grandchildren.  Living and being happy again, find happiness again.  After all those years of misery and suffering mentally, after all those years, to find happiness again.  To drag the thoughts away from my mind, the evil voices that’s haunt me, the, the, the, the terrible illness, schizophrenia, to drag all those things away from me.  I had, I’ve had people tell me to see my lawyers and discuss, discuss matters with my lawyers about taking my employers to court and suing them for large sum of money, but I don’t want to do it.  They said to sue them for all the years I spent in mental hospitals and prison and get compensation for what’s happened and I don’t want to do it.’
 
‘You seem to ‘
 
‘People have told me about it, because of what’s happen in my life, compensation for all those years.’
 
‘But what strikes me from what you’ve just said ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Is that, from somewhere, after, after seventeen, twenty years, ‘
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘ however long you’ve been in institutions.‘
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘You sounded so positive just now that ‘I want to live.’, you know ‘I want to live for my daughter, for my grandchildren.’
 
‘Children, yeah, for my family.’
 
‘And that’s amazing.’
 
‘Ah thank you.’
 
‘That you’re able to feel so positive.’
 
‘I really want to live.  I don’t want to die, I don’t want to commit suicide, I don’t want bad thoughts.  I just want to live for, long as I possibly can, God willing and daily make up for the past and what’s happened and to ask forgiveness from God.  That’s what I want.’
 
‘And do you, did that, feeling come when they talked about you leaving the hospital then?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘And did the feeling that you might die go away?’
 
‘It went away, yeah.’
 
‘Right, so that ‘
 
‘The, the, the fear, the fear of being in hospital made me think, of being in hospital made me think I would die, but when I got my discharge I wanted to live, in the community again.’
 
‘Everything changed?’
 
‘Changed.  Live in the community, and not be institutionalised, and having to go back, or wanting to go back to mental hospital which is not very nice, dreadful thing to be in mental hospital.’
 
‘Did you, when you suggested to the consultant that you would like to be discharged ?’
 
‘He, he was very good, Doctor Mageson[ph]’
 
‘Did you think he would say yes?’
 
‘I, I, I had a feeling he would, I got on so well with him, he was so helpful, and when he said ‘Ken, you’re getting your discharge today’ that made me, I was so happy I shook his hand and he wished me good luck and I thanked him very much, and they, all the staff, I was happy to, come with John Tweed here to this house, to live here, and it changed, I think it changed my whole life, from all those dark days, those dark days to a bright new future, beau, I can’t work again, I can work but I, I can’t get, permanent employment, nobody’ll employ me now, so I have to accept the fact that I have retired now and I get a small pension and people care for me here.  I get my food here, I got a bed to sleep on.  Nobody harasses me about where I go or what I do.  I got my freedom so that’s what I want, that’s fine, that’s what I want Ken eh?  Ken?’
 
‘Had you, had, had you asked the doctor before ?’
 
‘I had, ‘
 
‘whether you could be discharged?’
 
‘he said no, he said no, I’m not well enough to leave.’
 
‘Right, so he felt that the time was right?’
 
‘Yes, I was not getting very well, quickly, and wanted me to have a little more time in hospital, and then finally he gave me his, he gave me my discharge.’
 
‘And then ‘
 
‘And there was this happiness for me, happiness again.’
 
‘So how long was it between them saying to you that you’re going to be discharged and you actually leaving?’
 
‘Is about, ‘bout two, two or three year.’
 
‘Right, and were they preparing you to leave the hospital?’
 
‘They were, yeah, yeah.’
 
‘What, what kind of things were they doing to prepare you?’
 
‘They, they were making me more active in my, in my therapy, getting me to be more active, to take part in therapy, pottery, drama, what’s the other one, drama, pottery?’
 
‘Art you said.’
 
‘Art, that’s right, art, yeah.’
 
‘Was, were those the main therapy things you, you did?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘The whole seventeen years?’
 
‘That’s right, yeah.’
 
‘You mainly focused on those?’
 
‘Yeah, yeah.’
 
‘Right, right.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘What about, did they start teaching you anything about how to cook or how to look after yourself?’
 
‘Oh yes, sorry, they did teach me how to cook, for a while, not long, just for about three months, how to cook a meal.’
 
‘How did you find that?’
 
‘That was quite interesting, I didn’t mind it.’
 
‘What kind of food?’
 
‘It was a bit difficult to start with, cooking, cooking breakfast, and then cooking lunch, but I always had somebody to help me, so it wasn’t too bad.  I enjoyed that, I enjoyed that.
 
‘Yeah?’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Sounds interesting, yes, yes, and what about, you were actually quite used to going to the shops and things weren’t you?’
 
‘Oh yes I was, yes, yeah.’
 
‘What about what, going to supermarkets or anything like that, did they ?’
 
‘I went to the supermarket only once, with, with one, one of the staff, and I didn’t quite enjoy, I was going around and I was looking for things, I couldn’t find things, I had to keep asking my, my one, my friend to help me, and then, that’s the only time I went, but I’ve been to shows at Wembley, France a few times, Wembley a few times.’
 
‘Australia.’
 
‘Dog, dog racing, we went up to Hackney dog racing one day, it was good fun, about twelve of us went by coach.  We all took twenty-five pounds each and had a bash on the dogs, and I lost twenty-five pounds [laughs].  I didn’t back a winner.’
 
‘But you had a good ?’
 
‘We had a bit of fun, yeah.’
 
‘You had a good night out?’
 
‘Good night out, yeah.  I had a meal out, lovely.’
 
‘Great.  Ok.  So, where did they, how did they decide where you were going to go when you came out from Napsbury, or what happened then, how did they ?’
 
‘I had a social worker who knew about Recom, who’d heard about Recom, who got people here before me.’
 
‘From Napsbury?’
 
‘From Napsbury, yes.  Who got people here, to come and live here, people with the same problems as me, and then the social worked helped me to, to contact John Tweed, the manager here.  He used to be the manager, John Tweed.  Now it’s Kelsey, you know Kelsey?   She’s manager now, and he was only too pleased to come and see me in hospital [plane sounds] on the morning, and, and, and get me here, he was only too pleased, and I was very grateful to him.  So when I left Napsbury I was really, really happy, and I thought ‘Oh I’m, I’ve got my freedom now again, I’m going to be a new man from now on, a different man.   I’ll look forward to the future now, and be in a nice home, with friend.’
 
‘So you weren’t fearful of leaving the security?’
 
‘No, no more, no more, no more.  Those thoughts left me.’
 
‘What about the thought of leaving people that you’d been friendly with?’
 
‘A bit sad, I, I knew some nice people there, Edwina was very nice lady, she gave me two beautiful suits, her brother died and left lots and lots of new clothes and one day she very kindly came up to me and said ‘Ken, I think I got some suits that will fit you.’ and I said ‘How much are they?’ and she said ‘I don’t want a penny, if they fit you, you can have them’ and she brought me two beautiful suits.  So I took her out for a meal, and I bought her a big box of chocolates, and she was, she didn’t want any money from me.  I was prepared to pay for the suits.  She was very kind, Edwina, nice lady.  Spent thirty-eight years in Napsbury, thirty-eight years.  Mental health problems.  Marriage break-up, bit of a breakdown, a slight breakdown, same problems.  Most people in Napsbury are people with, who had breakdowns, and who had prison sentences and mental health problems.  So I wasn’t the only one, there were lots of people.  There were about 500 people in Napsbury, when I was there, about 500.’
 
‘Do you, do you think, just generally thinking about those people that were in Napsbury, do you think they were people to be afraid of, or do you think they were people to feel ?’
 
‘No.  There some people, some men, not the women so much but men, men who had criminal records, people who been very violent, smashed things up, car, smashed things up, people who stolen money, people who assaulted other people, people who’d been in prison, all those people.  There were some.’
 
‘But not, not that many?’
 
‘Not, not many, no.’
 
‘Right.  So generally you felt that people needed care?’
 
‘And, that’s right help, yeah.’
 
‘When they were in Napsbury?’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘OK.  So you moved straight from the hospital into Leecroft House?’
 
‘Yes, from Napsbury to here.’
 
‘How ?’
 
‘I’ve been here three and a half years now.’
 
‘Right.  How was it at the beginning?’
 
‘Bit [laughs] a bit, I was a bit nervous when I came here.  I spent the first, first time I came I spent I spent a night, then I went back to hospital, then came back the next week, spent a week, then went back to hospital, then came back for a month and then I was here for good, permanent.’
 
‘That’s ‘
 
‘So no way would I go back to hospital, unless something really drastically happened, which I hope won’t happen.  I’m not going to get into a state again.  I’m not going to think I’m dying or, or something, somebody going to kill me or something, like I did think of my boss trying to kill me.  Those things don’t come on, I’d hope they don’t happen to me again.  So I, I’ll be happy here.  I’d like to spend a few more years here and maybe one day I might move on.  Go to something else, something different.  But I’m happy here at the moment, I’m happy here.’
 
‘And while you’re here they provide you with your food?’
 
‘Food, yes.’
 
‘What about washing?’
 
‘We get a clothing allowance, £100 a year.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘To buy new clothes.’
 
‘What about washing?’
 
‘Washing machine, yeah, I do my washing twice a week.’
 
‘You do it yourself?’
 
‘Twice a week, yes, I can do all those things on my own now, which I couldn’t do before.  I can, I’m more independent than, than I’ve ever been, because I like doing things for myself.’
 
‘What about ironing?’
 
‘Ironing, I love ironing.’
 
‘Oh, I’ve got a ‘
 
‘I love ironing, [laughs] and, what’s the other thing I do, washing, ironing, oh, keeping my room nice and clean.  Hoovering the floor of my room, polishing the furniture, keeping my room very smart.’
 
‘Have you got your own room here?’
 
‘I’ve got my own room yeah, I’m happy there.’
 
‘And have you got your own bits and pieces in there?’
 
‘Yes, yes, cupboard with all my clothes.  I’ve got a radio in my room.  I’m getting a TV for Christmas.’
 
‘Lovely.’
 
‘My daughter’s buying a TV for Christmas.  So, I’m ok.  I’m happy now.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘Not in a dormitory with eighteen other men.’ [laughs]
 
‘And you can go out whenever you like here?’
 
‘Yes, yes, they don’t mind.  I like going up to the High Street every day.  I go out for a coffee in the mornings, and sometimes, when I have the money, I do a bit of shopping, I buy a shirt or some trousers or some socks, do a bit of shopping, have a coffee out, come back have lunch, go out, again.  So, I’m ‘
 
‘So you’re quite active?’
 
‘Yeah, I’m quite active now, yeah.’
 
‘And you go to Michelle’s?’
 
‘Michelle’s yes, frequently.’
 
‘Right.  Excellent.  What about, what contact do you have now with doctors or psychiatrists?’
 
‘No, no contact.  I’ve got a GP here who lives here, close by, but I got no contact with anybody at Napsbury or anybody who I’ve known in Napsbury, my consultant, no-one.  I got a GP here, and I’ve got a, a nurse who comes and gives me injections every fortnight, and I have treatment for my psoriasis.’
 
‘From the GP or ?’
 
‘District, district nurse comes in the morning.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘District nurse.’
 
‘Who gives you your medication?’
 
‘Night time, one of the staff.’
 
‘Oh, you said ‘
 
‘They have medication here, morning and night, yeah.’
 
‘But you don’t see a psychiatrist?’
 
‘No, no, no, no.
 
‘And how often do you have your injection?’
 
‘Once a fortnight.’
 
‘So the nurse comes?’
 
‘Yeah, that’s right.’
 
‘Right, and you told me earlier on you’ve got a key worker.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘Here?’
 
‘Yeah.  We have key working sessions once a week.’
 
‘Right.’
 
‘We talk about problem, problems, or anything that’s to do with mental health, and he’s quite good, Paul.  His wife’s had a baby girl last week, Zoey, he’s happy.’
 
‘Yes, I bet.’
 
‘Baby girl, oh he’s very happy.’
 
‘Lovely.’
 
‘I had a beautiful daughter and a lovely son, oh God I miss them.  I’d give anything in the world to see them again and have them but it’s best I don’t.  They’ll only break my heart to think that I lost them.  So it’s best that I don’t, I don’t see my wife and them again, be too much for me.’
 
‘Maybe you need to con, just focus on Michelle?’
 
‘Michelle and the grandchildren, yeah.’
 
‘Grandchildren.  How did you feel Ken when Michelle said she was, did she get married, when, when she was getting married?’
 
‘Michelle?  Oh I was so excited, as soon as she told me, I was so happy for her.  I bought a new suit from Marks & Spencers, £250, new shirt, everything new, brand new, from Marks, and I was so excited on the morning of the wedding.  Oh it was a fantastic wedding.  It was a Greek Orthodox wedding, at Golders Green.  There were lots and lots of people, and I was so happy for Michelle.  I, oh, a few tears came down my eye, few tears, when, then, then she took the, the, the, what’s it, when she took the, when she said, when she, Johnny put, Johnny put the ring, the best man puts the ring on her finger Johnny put the ring on her finger.  I started crying, and then, we drove around in a, a Rolls Royce, a Rolls Royce, after the, after the, the ceremony, we went to a hall and they had a fantastic dinner party for everybody, a party, reception.  I had to make a speech and I was a bit nervous, but I did say a few words and my daughter said that I’d done very well and she thanked me for everything I’d for her over the years and said she’d be in close touch with me and we were going to be very close to each other, and, she was hoping to have children, which she has had, two children, ‘and you’re going to be happy da, dad, I want you to be happy.’
 
‘Ohhh.’
 
‘Oh, she’s a lovely daughter I got, I show you a photo of her, and my grandchildren when we go down.’
 
‘That ‘
 
‘I’m so happy about her now and the children.’
 
‘That sounds very emotional.’
 
‘Oh yes, I’m, made up for all that I’ve lost, made up for all that was lost.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Something new, something different.’
 
‘Yes.’
 
‘Although my children will be my children for ever and ever.’
 
‘They will.’
 
‘And nobody will ever take my kids away from me, or harm my kids.’
 
‘No.’
 
‘Nobody, I won’t let anybody touch my kids.’
 
‘No.’
 
‘I love all my children, not just Michelle.  The two as well.  All three.’
 
‘Yeah, and as you say, they’ll always be your children wherever they are.’
 
‘They’ll always be my children, yeah.’
 
‘Yeah.’
 
‘I brought them into this world, no matter what happened and no matter what illness I was suffering from, I brought them into this world, and I want them to live a good, happy life, and never to forget me.  I hope they’ll, they’ll think of me one day and say ‘Oh, my dad, I’m so sorry that, what happened to my dad’ and they think of me now and again, like I think of them.  That’s what I want be in life, that’s what I want in life now.  My children to be happy, and I’m so happy I’m, I got Michelle and the grandchildren.  You must see my grandson he’s quite a boy he ‘
 
‘Really.’
 
‘I was there last night, at my daughter’s place, last night, and she prepared me a rice, nice rice and curry, and she put on some music, and you should have seen my grandson dancing.  Quite a fantastic mover he was.  [both laugh]  We were cheer, clapping [sound of clapping] and saying ‘Come on boy, come on Leon’ and he was dancing, better than adult, fantastic.’
 
‘It sounds as ‘
 
‘So that makes me happy, all those things make me happy.  I bought my daughter a car last month for a £1000, I bought her a car.  Whatever I can do for her, I do.  Bought her a nice car and she dropped me off here last night and said ‘dad you can come home anytime you like to visit us, I’m only too happy to see you.’  So I’ve got a good understanding with my daughter now.’
 
‘That’s brilliant.’
 
‘And, things are looking, are getting much, on the brighter side now.’
 
‘That sounds great.’
 
‘Thank you, thank you.’
 
‘That sounds really positive.  So Ken, looking, looking back on your life, it’s been very up and down.’
 
‘Up and down yeah.’
 
‘You know, more down than up I think sometimes.’
 
‘Yes.  Because of what’s happened, yeah.  The two, incident, the, the two promotions.’
 
‘Yeah.  What, what’s your, what’s your, I mean you’ve mentioned it, mentioned a few things, what’s your, what’s your dreams for the future now?’
 
‘Dreams for the future?’ [pause]
 
‘For yourself?’
 
‘To live, to live in a nice big mansion [interviewer laughs] after I win the lottery, and take my daughter and her husband and my grandchildren and buy a big mansion and buy a nice, some nice cars for my daughter and put money in my grandchildren’s savings account, give them quite a lot of money.  So if I came into money I would help my children very, my grandchildren very much.  I would.  Over the short term, I just want to be content with life.  I have, I’m not broke, I’m not skint.  I can live from day to day, I can live every month with, with the bit of money I got.  I just want to be content.  But if I do win any money on the lottery and sometimes I think I will win because I come very close to it sometimes, I get three numbers up and I keep saying if I get three more I’ll win seven million.  No, I’ll help my family, I’ll help my family out.  Otherwise I’m content with my life at the moment.  I’m happy now.’
 
‘You feel as if‘
 
‘Happy that I’m away from a mental hospital.  Not in, there, any more.  I will never ever go back to a mental hospital, never.  I would rather be dead than go back to a mental hospital, no more.’
 
‘And you feel, at the moment that your pretty content?’
 
‘I’m ok, just, to be out, I can take it here, I can take it.  I’ve been here three and a half years and I’ve done well here, and I’m pleased about it and the staff are very, very helpful.  They’re very understanding.  They all know about all of us here.  There are two other people here who’ve been in prison for violence and problems and they’re ok, I’m ok.   We don’t, we don’t go for each other, we don’t quarrel, we get on quite well.  There are three ladies here, who are nice, and nine men, nine men who all been in mental hospitals.’
 
‘No it’s, ‘
 
‘It’s ok here.’
 
‘That’s really good to hear you say you feel quite content.’
 
‘Yes, that’s right.’
 
‘I just hope, when you buy your big mansion, [laughs] you’ll invite me to the house warming party.’
 
‘Oh yeah, I will, oh yeah, I won’t forget, I won’t forget, yes, sure [laughs].
 
‘Ken, I’d like to really, really thank you, ‘
 
‘Oh yes’
 
‘I mean it’s ‘
 
‘Oh yeah, thank you so much.’
 
‘Your story is really interesting.’
 
‘I’m sorry if I’ve, seemed a bit boring sometimes.’
 
‘Not at all, not at all.’
 
‘I’m so glad you came to see me.’
 
‘It’s been fascinating.’
 
‘And done this interview, Ken, thank you very much Ken.’
 
[cameraman - ‘It’s ok’]
 
‘Great, I enjoyed it, I was nervous, so nervous last night.  I was holding my daughter’s hand and saying ‘I’m scared, I’m a bit nervous of going in front of the camera’ and she said ‘dad, don’t worry, you’re going to be a film star.’
 
‘Yes, that’s right.’
 
‘Just relax, just relax, you’ll be alright.’
 
‘Yeah, and I hope you are because ‘
 
‘Yes, thank I am.’
 
‘For the archive, it’s been very valuable to hear your story.’
 
‘Yes, thank you so much, I’m very happy that you came.’
 
‘Thanks a lot Ken.’
 
[End of DVCPro tape 4 – End of VHS tape 1]