05 KATHLEEN HADDRELL

MENTAL HEALTH TESTIMONY ARCHIVE
 
 
 
KATHLEEN HADDRELL
 
 
C905/05/01-03/VHS 01-01
Original on DVC-Pro
Copy on VHS
 
Interviewed by Pauline Abbott
Camera by Ken Langdown
 
Transcribed by Julie Sharman
May 1999
 

[Start of DVCPro Tape 1 – Start of VHS Tape 1]
 
`Hi Kathy…thank you for coming to talk to us.  Can you just confirm your name?’
 
`Yes, Kathleen Haddrell’
 
`OK, how old are you Kathy?’
 
`Seventy.’
 
`And when were you born?’
 
`1928’
 
`1928… ok… and where… where was… where were you born?’
 
`Fulham’
 
`In Fulham?’
 
`Yes’
 
`OK… umm… what was the name of your mother and father?’
 
`Umm.. my mother’s name was Evelyn Payne [ph] and my father’s name was John Payne…’
 
`OK… and, what did they do… what sort of…?’
 
`My father was a painter and decorator…’
 
`Uh huh…’
 
`And my mother had ten children to bring up, so…’
 
`Ten children?’
 
`That was enough… yeah…’
 
`Mmm… and how many sisters or brothers did you have?’
 
`I had six brothers and three sisters.’
 
`Uh huh… and where did you come in… were you the eldest, or…?’
 
`No, I was about the… sixth one… fifth one down, or… yes… yes…’
 
`OK, and who was the eldest?’
 
`Chris, my brother, he died last year.’
 
`He died last year?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`What were the names of the other brothers and sisters?’
 
`[laughs]…’
 
`If you can remember…’
 
`Terry, Brian, Ronnie, Ivy, Bernie, me, Winnie, Evelyn, George and Chris.’
 
`OK…’
`Yeah…’
 
`You’ve got a good memory… very good memory’
 
`[laughs]…’
 
`How many of them are still alive?’
 
`Umm… well hopefully, I’ve two brothers in Australia, one in New Zealand, a sister in Canada, which I’m… obviously is alive, a sister in London and a sister in King’s Lynn’
 
`OK… and do you keep in touch with them or…?’
 
`Yes, I keep in touch with them by letter and ‘phone…’
 
`Uh huh…’
 
`… the two sisters… and… my… sister in Canada by letter…’
 
`Uh huh…’
 
`… and rather rarely with my brothers in Australia…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Just going back to your family and background, what sort of home did you live in, what sort of building… was it an end of terrace house, or…?’
 
`I didn’t remember the first house, at all well… during the war, the second world war, the house was bombed… I was evacuated at the time…’
 
`Uh huh…’
 
`And when I came home, we were living in a big house in West Kensington…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`…which was quite useful, because it had big rooms you see… yes…’
 
`How many rooms was in that house?’
 
`Umm… there was… two, on the ground floor, and two on the… first floor… and… bathroom and two toilets… yes…’
 
`Uh huh…did you have to share or did you have your own room?’
 
`Yes… no… I had a big bedroom with my two sisters, yes… three of us…’
 
`Uh huh… yes… in terms of your mother and father…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…what were their backgrounds… where were they born?’
 
`My father was Irish…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`And my mother came from… Torquay, in Devon… yes…’
 
`Ok…what was your mother’s name again?’
 
`Married name? Yes…’
 
`Yes…’
`Payne…’
 
`Payne… what was her christian name?’
 
`Evelyn…’
 
`Evelyn Payne…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`And your father’s name?’
 
`John…’
 
`John Payne…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`And he was from Ireland?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Which part of Ireland? Was it Northern Ireland or…?’
 
`Dublin.’
 
`Dublin…?’
 
`Dublin, yeah…’
 
`Yes… uh huh… so did you get a chance to visit Ireland… Dublin?’
 
`No…’
 
`Didn’t you…?’
 
`Well we didn’t… well we couldn’t afford it for one thing…’
 
`Yes, of course…’
 
`’Cause we… no…’
 
`Uh huh… what was… which school did you go to?’
 
`Well my first school was in Fulham, it was St Thomas’s Catholic School…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`And then, when I was eleven… oh, you want to know about first school… that was it…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Yes… yes…’
 
`Yes… who were the teachers, were they nuns…?’
 
`Yes… it was…’
 
`…what was the schedule there?’
 
`It was… the headmistress was an Irish nun… I have… no real recollection of any more nuns, but… I have a very strong affection for the two teachers… that taught me when I was five…’
 
`Oh… hmmm…’
 
`…very strong affection for them…’
 
`Mmm…’
 
`They were angelic… yes…’
 
`Uh huh… and… in terms of your school days, or… is there a particular teacher that stood out for you?’
 
`Err… in that school?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`A Miss Conden [???] and Miss Newton [???] were equally, marvellous in my eyes… they were sweet and kind, yeah…’
 
`Why were they so marvellous?’
 
`Well they were so kind, you know, they were gentle, and… they were gentle and… well, sweet… , you know… I was five years old…’
 
`Did you have many friends at school?’
 
`Well [laughs] … funnily enough I remember when I was five, a little boy, asked me at the age of five, asked me if I would be his sweetheart… yes…’
 
`[laughs]’
 
`…yes… I remember that, yes…’
 
`Mmm… uh huh… what was his name?’
 
`Oh, I can’t remember…’
 
`You can’t remember?’
 
`No…’
 
`Ok, so…you moved up… you moved on to secondary school?’
 
`Yes… yes.’
 
`What was the name of that school and what was that like?’
 
[both talking together]
 
`Notre Dame, in Battersea Park Road… that was run by, not [inaudible] nuns, English nuns… yes…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`That was wonderful… [inaudible]…’
 
`What were your experiences at secondary school?’
 
`Ah, it was very good.  We had a small class of twelve girls… the teachers were excellent, and… of course, being such a small class, we got very… did very well…’
 
`Mmm’
 
`In fact… all one of us… everybody but one girl got very good marks in triculation [ph], you see, in the sixteen… which was…’
 
`Uh huh…what were your favourite subjects… and why…?’
 
`Well it’s always been English… English has always been my favourite… I didn’t like Geography, I was no good at Art, otherwise [inaudible]… I like everything, you know…’
 
`You like everything, hmmm?… Umm… what were your hobbies and… what are special interests… during your school days?’
 
`Well, my personal hobby all my life has been reading, which is very sedentary, but… we used to play tennis, rounders which I didn’t like at all, and… netball, which was quite good I found there…’
 
`Did you have many friends in the secondary school?’
 
`Well yes… I did… I had two particular ones, that I kept in touch with for quite a few years afterwards, yes… but the… being such a small school and such a nice atmosphere, there was, you know… generally friendly sort of… feeling among us… you know…’
 
`Were you at any time unwell during your school days?’
 
`Not mentally, no… no…’
 
`What about physical?’
 
`Well I think I had things like… mumps and that sort of thing, you know…’
 
`Mmm’
 
`Nothing that drastic that I can remember at all… no…’
 
`So, what was… what were the first… awareness of mental health?’
`Yes… ‘
 
`…that you can recall?’
 
`When I left school I got a very nice job in the city in a chartered accounts’, as a clerk… and… after a while, I… I found I was so depressed in the mornings, I looked on the black side, and I found it almost impossible to work, but I didn’t realise that it was… perhaps the beginning of a real depressive illness…’
 
`Mmm… how old were you at that time?’
 
`I would have been about eighteen, probably, or… seventeen perhaps.’
 
`Uh huh… so how did you cope with that… and did you seek help?’
 
`Well, I… no I… I mean… it… I mean in any case in those days people didn’t talk about depression like they do now, and I… I didn’t realise that… there was anything strange about it… I… I didn’t notice it actually until I looked back… and realised it was a… a sort of unusual thing, you know… yes…’
 
`But how did you cope?’
 
`Well I didn’t… I just went to work and didn’t do much work… and… that was that, you know… ‘
 
`So at what stage did you… was it recognised that something was wrong?’
 
`Well that’s… that’s another thing… this is where the down side of my life comes in really because… umm… when I was about twenty… two… I got suicidal… and nobody had a clue what to do about it… yes…’
 
`What did you do about it?’
 `I didn’t… I just went and told everybody my… mother, and you know, different people and the doctor, but nobody seemed to know what to do, so I just stopped telling people.’
 
`Yeah… how did you overcome those feelings?’
 
`I didn’t in the end… in the end I didn’t, I just… it got so bad that one day I thought well, I… I’m a very unworthy person and… it’s time I sort of told people I wasn’t any good and… I swallowed a hundred aspirins…’
 
`And then what happened?  How were you found?’
 
`I was found… umm… this is the bit I don’t want to talk about…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`I went to hospital, and they pumped me out, and… umm… then I… they sent me to a private hospital, err… Holloway Sanitorium in Virginia Water… where I really brightened up…’
 
`Wonderful…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Mmm…’
 
`I made friends there… and when the doctor told me to leave, well I said I don’t want to go… I think it’s… people here are much nicer than the people outside…. [laughs]… and she said, `well you’re not facing reality’, you know… so… umm… I left…’
 
`Were you living at home during that time or were you living on your own?’
 
`This is what I don’t want to talk about…’
`Ok… that’s… that’s all right…that’s all right… so… when was your first… admission to hospital?’
 
`That would have been… well I would have been about… twenty two, so that’s about… what’s twenty two from seventy?’
 
`Umm…’
 
`What’s twenty two from seventy…?’
 
[camera: `forty eight is it…?’]
 
`Forty eight years ago, now…’
 
`What was the name of that hospital?’
 
`Holloway Sanitorium, Virginia Water’
 
`Ok, of course you did say that, yes… What was it like there… when you… it was lovely?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`But on… when you… when you first arrived at the hospital, can you recall how it felt and your first impressions?’
 
`I liked it so much, it was so pleasant… and… and the doctor, you know, they sort of went round giving people sleeping pills ad lib, which they have done in state hospitals since, and… I refused them and the doctor said, `why did you?’, and I said, well I thought if I stayed awake one night, I’d sleep all right the next night, so she decided not to put me on any pills, you see… at all…’
 
`What was the nature of your admission, was it voluntary, or…?’
`Oh yes… yes…’
 
`Ok…who decided… umm… that you should go there, was it you or..?’
 
`The… it was the doctor from hospital, who came to see me in the… what did they call it, that ward?  Umm… I suppose it was a ward for… I don’t know what they call it, that ward… what room it was…’
 
`Uh huh…’
 
[pause]
 
`When a friend of mine came to see me in there I said well I’m not going to a mental hospital, and she said well they might make you go, and then I sort of looked back in time and remembered that people could be sent to prison for… attempting suicide, so I thought, well… it’s the hospital it is… yes…’
 
` Was that one of the fears at the time?’
 
`Pardon?’
 
`Was that one of the fears, that if you didn’t volunteer… go voluntary, that you’ll be… sectioned?’
 
`Nobody mentioned it, but it rang a bell in my mind, I think, that… you know, that that was traditionally the… the… law in England, wasn’t there?’
 
`Ok…’
 
`Yes… what she may have meant of course that they would have sectioned me, but I didn’t know anything about that at the time, I expect that’s what she meant, really… yes…’
 
`So was anything explained to you, umm… as to if you were admitted, on a voluntary basis… what would happen?'’
 
`No…’
 
`In comparison to… if you were to be sectioned?’
 
`No…’
 
`And when you arrived at the hospital, did anyone explain to you, what will happen… you know, and so on?’
 
`No… there was… they were all very pleasant people there… they… gave me modified Insulin after a while, umm… or they gave us ECT which in those days there was no anaesthetic…[laughs]… it was terrifying… terrifying…’
 
`Did you have ECT?’
 
`I had it twice, I think…’
 
` Did you?’
 
`Oh, it was horrible… terrifying… ‘
 
`Was it explained to you before…?’
 
`No… they put this… apparatus in the dormitory and walked it over to us, and… and then there was this sort of… whatever happened… it was horrible…’
 
`Mmm… How did you feel after?’
 
`I don’t remember’
`You don’t remember?’
 
`No…’
 
`Were you fearful before, were you aware as to what was happening to you, what ECT was?’
 
`No… but I expect it… it… I expect that was why I became happy there really, because it jolted me out of the… deep depression you see…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`I expect that’s what happened you see…’
 
`So you think it helped you?’
 
`I’m sure… yes…’
 
`Were you on any medication there?’
 
`No… never… no… no… ‘
 
`You mentioned something about Modified Insulin?’
 
`Yeah… oh sorry… I thought… I was thinking of tablets, yes… Modified Insulin yes… ‘
 
`How often did you have that?’
 
`I think… I think I had it every morning I think we had it and we… carried this little bottle of glucose with us all day, yes… ‘
 
`Why did you carry the bottle of glucose?’
 
`I think if you felt dizzy or something like that…’
 
`Did they explain to you… why?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Uh huh…Did any of your friends or family visited you during that time?’
 
`Yes, my mother came… and a friend of mine that had looked after me during the war, when I was evacuated…’
 
`Uh huh..’
 
`She came…yes…’
 
`Where… where were you evacuated to?’
 
`Well, for the first year we were in Eastbourne, at my school, and when they… when France was taken… fell to the Germans, they moved us to… umm.. Carnarvenshire [ph] in South Wales… you see…’
 
`And who cared for you…?’
 
`Well this lady in Eastbourne… she.. they had no children this couple… and they really took me to their hearts, you know… for many years… and… the couple in… Wales… they had one daughter.  I wasn’t a bit happy… they were, well off people, you know, middle class, but err.. she appeared to have no… no maternal feelings [inaudible]… very pleasant lady and, of course my mother was a very loving woman, and I wasn’t a bit happy and… when we got back I… I was so happy…’
 
`How old were you… when you… were evacuated and home?’
 
`Eleven…’
 
`And how old were you when you returned back to your family?’
 
`Well we came back when the bath [ph] bombs were dropping… the headmistress was very unhappy and she… got the government to allow us to… [noise in background]…’
 
`Just carry on… just carry on’
 
`What’s happening?  Perhaps it’s a car…’
 
`Just carry on…’
 
`She got the government [loud `beeping noise in background]… to allow us to return, so we didn’t wait ‘till after the war, which was the original idea, you know…’
 
`You want to cut?… You want to stop?’ [loud `beeping’ noise still].
 
[Camera: `Yeah…’ `Ok… running…’]
 
`Ok Kathy, we were talking about the… the stage where you were evacuated to Eastbourne…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`And I asked how old were you then… you said eleven’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Is it correct?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`How old were you when you left, when you returned back to your family?’
`I know… I probably would have been… I was… I think between thirteen and fourteen when I got back home, yes… yes…’
 
` What was it like, in terms of getting back to normal?’
 
`Oh it was marvellous to get home to my family… wonderful…’
 
`Ok… let… let me just take you back to, where we were also, when you… when you first admitted..’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…to that hospital in Virginia Waters, yes?… What was the environment like, what was… what were the… did you have your own room, or was it dormitory…? What was it like?’
 
`No… there was… I was in a dormitory with about… five girls… women, young women… and I liked them… and then when we went to the Insulin ward, it was about the same sort of thing, you know… small ward… yes…’
 
`What was the building like?’
 
`It wasn’t all that wonderful, the… they had all these grounds, similar sort of thing, to they have here… but we never went into the sitting room… and I think it was because there were kind of people there that were pretty ill… in their minds… and we kind of instinctively didn’t go in there, you know… yes…’
 
`And what sort of… contact did you have with the staff?  Were they… caring, type of people…?’
 
`Well, you see they were mostly… umm… not much at all, I remember, not much at all… no…’
 
`What do you mean, not much at all? In what sense?’
 
`I don’t remember actually, spending any time talking to them, you know… they didn’t… do anything unpleasant and… we didn’t seem… well… I think you see, err… the staff in that place, being a private hospital, they… sort of kept their place, if you know what I mean, you know… they were serving us, and… the doctor was a nice woman, she was a Czechoslovakian woman… very nice… [pause]…’
 
[pause]
 
`What sort of clothes did you… did you wear there?’
 
`Oh, I’ve no idea…’
 
`Did you wear your own clothes, or…?’
 
`Oh yes… oh yes…’
 
`So you were allowed to wear your own clothes?’
 
`Yes.’
 
`What about personal belongings, were you able to take any in with you?’
 
`Umm… I remember we had a dressing table… there was a sister there that was from a very long time ago, an elderly lady… and she was dressed like somebody in a… umm… what are those people’s names now? Sort of a period film… and… just a [inaudible]… and… one day… all we had to do, in… in the matter of work, was to dust our dressing tables, and one day she just looked at me frowning, and I thought oh my God, you know… this isn’t like her… and then when I went… when I dusted it, afterwards, she sort of smiled at me and… [inaudible]… she was more like a nanny, you know… she dressed in very old fashioned… like a nanny, and of course she was very respectful to us… but… you know… you must dust your dressing table, or I’m cross…’
 
`Can you recall what personal belonging you took with you?’
 
`No… no…’
 
`What about friends… did you make friends there?’
 
`Oh yes…’
 
`Were there many?’
 
`Umm… one girl that I met in the… where was it…?  I think she was in the… first ward with me… she was a professional singer… and… about my age… and we kept in touch for many years… after we left there…’
 
`You said she was a professional singer… how did you socialise… within…?’
 
`With her…?’
 
`… that sort of setting… yes… in hospital?’
 
`Yes.. she was… we kept… there was… little… sort of effort where they got coffee, and… and… what do you call them… penguin biscuits… and… we spent a lot of time there, and… in the grounds, you see… and we got on very well.  We kept in touch for many years afterwards.’
 
`Did you all have any socials inside the hospital?…get togethers?’
 
`Oh… we… there was a lovely ballroom and… every Wednesday afternoon we had a… dance instructor, that taught us to… do all the things that we did in those days, which was the waltz, and the quickstep… and that…’
 
`Were you a very good dancer?’
 
`Well he taught me to be one actually…’
 
`Yes?’
 
`But it’s a long time ago… [laughs]…’
 
`Mmm… and… I’m assuming that you quite enjoyed it, did you?’
 
`Oh yes… yes…’
 
`Were you at any time, or any of your colleagues, able to go out and socialise occasionally?’
 
`No, we didn’t actually because… umm… it was…  a long way from the village, a long way… and we just never went… you know… no…’
 
`So did your parents, or any friends visited you often whilst you were there?’
 
`No… my mother came, I think once… to see the doctor, and… my friend from… Eastbourne, she came once… you know, and the idea was to get her… I expect they do it now, today… in hospitals, to get their view of your… of what… they know you well… what sort of person they see you as, you know… I expect they do it now do they?… I don’t know…’
 
`What was it like after… the fact that you didn’t have any visits… am I correct?’
 
`Yes…’
`How did it feel… you know, after your mum came and visited you and then you didn’t see her again?’
 
`I think… no.. I wasn’t worried… I mean the people there were so pleasant and one… one of them in there we used to talk to… Pauline and I used to sort of go as a pair to talk to the men, you know… one of them was such a sweet man, he was a lawyer, and… member of parliament, you know.. so we found it very… he was a real gentlemen, you know… another one was an alcoholic, but a… brilliant pianist and… the way which he sort of [inaudible]… [inaudible]… and that sort of stuff… I kept in touch with him for many years until he died…’
 
`What was his name?’
 
`Edward Stone [???] he was…’
 
`And what was the name of the MP… [inaudible]?’
 
`Umm.. Alex… Beechman or Beecham [ph]… he was a dear man.  He married one of the patients… yes…’
 
`And what party did he belong to?’
 
`Oh well I don’t … in those days I didn’t care… I should imagine by his demeanour he was probably conservative… yes…’
 
` You know, during your time, especially on your admission to that hospital, were you made aware as to what your rights were?’
 
`No… I don’t think I had any problems…actually…’
 
`But you know, if you had a complaint or… you wanted to query something that you wasn’t happy about…?’
 
`No…’
 
`Who did… who would you approach?’
 
`No…’
 
`You didn’t…?’
 
`’Cause I don’t… I naturally seemed to rise, you know… if I had any problems, I would have told the doctor… you see…’
 
`Yeah… [pause]… were there any…?  What was the sort of percentage in terms of male and female?’
 
`Oh I don’t remember…’
 
`Were there more male than female?…or does it like the…’
 
`I don’t remember very much.  My memory’s rather narrowed down to the people… that I talked to and met… you know… we had our meals in a big dining room, with the doctors… you know… yes.  So we talked to those at the table, there were some… I mean… I mean I liked it because the people that I met there were so interesting, you know… led interesting lives, when they… before they went in there… so I really enjoyed it…’
 
`So how would you say… how would you describe being in that hospital… was it one of a community…?
 
`Yes… a small… I had a small group of friends, which I think you get anywhere, don’t you really… I mean I… I have just a limited number of people here that I mix with… yes…’
 
`So what was… what was the diagnosis given to you whilst you were there?’
 
`Well, the doctor said you’re not neurotic, she said, but you’re potential neurotic [laughs]…’
 
`Were you happy with that…?’
 
`No…’
 
`…diagnosis?’
 
`No…’
 
`What did you think…?’
 
`Well you think of neurotic people… as being sort of bogus, don’t you, you know… not really your… sort of making nuisances of themselves because they think they are… yes…’
 
`What sort of diagnosis do you think you were expecting to be given?’
 
`Depression I suppose, really… [pause].  The trouble was you see that… as I said, the ECT probably… get me out of depression, and I liked the place so much that… I didn’t show much sign of being sort of depressed… you know… I’m rather… do you think I’m rather odd? [laughs loudly]… I  sound very odd don’t I?  I mean, the… the person liking the place so much…’
 
`You know, being given a… a  diagnosis of potential neurotic, did they explain to you what it meant?'
 
`No..’
 
`Did you have any idea yourself?’
 
`Not really, no… no I didn’t… I just thought neurotic people were, as I say, people that thought they were ill and made a nuisance of themselves, you see, but I didn’t… actually I didn’t think… that’s the trouble with me, I mean I… umm… it… I’ve had so many different diagnoses from different doctors at this… by, by now, that… I think to myself, well nobody really knows… err… and… you know… you…’
 
`What were the other diagnoses… you were thinking of…?’
 
`Chronic depression, deep seated anxiety neurosis… umm… schizophrenia… I don’t know what Dr Robertson thinks I am… mood swings… mmm…’
 
`Were you given any explanation as to what all of those different diagnoses meant?’
 
`[both talking together] You see that’s my trouble… when I’m in… when I’m confronted with a doctor, I don’t… sort of ask any questions, you know, what does that mean and why do you think that, and… that’s my trouble, it’s so silly of me… mmm…’
 
`Why do you think it’s so silly of you?’
 
`Well if I was… instead of wondering what I am, I might find out perhaps what… [laughs]… well I’m balmy… I’m balmy… [laughs]…’
 
`So when did you leave… that hospital?’
 
`Umm.. I think It’d probably be about a year…’
 
`Ok… and then what happened… where did you go?’
 
`Umm… the doctor got me into a YWCA… in the… Buckingham Palace Road, and the Hospital Chaplain got me a job in a healing… outfit in the West End… you know…’
 
`So… how old were you when you left?’
 
`What, the job?’
`No, when you left the hospital?’
 
`I think I would have been about twenty three, twenty four… about twenty four, yes…’
 
`And what did they tell you… and were you much better when… when you left?’
 
`Well I… I didn’t actually… I mean I didn’t come down to earth really… umm.. I was… I used to kind of, you know how you get into… in these hospitals you sit and dream a lot, you know, you look into space… and… you don’t do anything much, you know that seems to be quite a common thing with patients… and, I let it out… to the other lady working in the room that I had been in a mental hospital, and that kind of clinched the… matter… you see..’
 
`In what way?’
 
`Well, you’re… you know, we don’t want mental people here…’
 
`How did you feel about that? Did it make you more depressed or…?’
 
`Well it’s happened to me again, you see… later… later on… and… it happened to me later on when I had worked very hard… umm… as a book keeper and wages clerk, and typist, very hard, doing… more than one person’s work for one person’s wage, and… after three years, you know, I took a week off with… I got very anxious and couldn’t concentrate and… on the Monday when I went back they said, well, this isn’t a normal illness… I’m afraid we… you know… off you go… and… I was quite bitter about that… but of course that was some years ago, and I mean, people thought well… I suppose they thought well… as they… they said… this isn’t a mental… this isn’t a normal illness, and… you know, if I had bronchitis it would have been all right, you know, but… but I got over it because I realised that… at that time, people had this… enormous prejudice, you know…’
 
`What helped you to come to terms with it… or to get over it?’
 
`Well, I sort of thought to myself, well… for one thing I was the only clerk they had… and… umm… it was rather difficult to cope with the work when the only help was sick, although it was only a week… for one thing… and… secondly, the… just the general climate in those days, of opinion that if you’re mental we’re not quite sure, you know… but I… I think ‘cause you… and… so long time ago and… and I think you can poison yourself by… by resentment can’t you?’
 
`So during… during your… whilst you were working, were you on any medication?’
 
`No… no…’
 
`Do you think it would have… it would have been helpful if you were…?’
 
`I think it’s quite hard to do… brain work on pills actually… I think it’s quite hard actually… I think if you’re brain’s clear you’ve got a much better chance…’
 
`You said earlier that you made the mistake of… saying that you weren’t well…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Why…why did you say that?’
 
`Well, because… as I’ve said… I mean that’s why you’re engaged in this work, to make people realise that we’re not some mysterious outsiders that are best forgotten, aren’t you, really?  It’s that sort of climate of opinion that you’re trying to overcome, isn’t it?’
 
`Do you think… that sort of attitude still exists today?’
 
`Umm… I think a bit of  it is in my own mind now… I got to Epsom shopping, and… if… if I get a sort of a funny look, I think oh… you know… they’re thinking… does she come from a mental place… it’s partly in my mind now’
 
`Why do you think it’s partly in your own mind?’
 
`Because, I mean, in actual reality… people these days outside, they don’t even see you do they… they don’t… they don’t notice you… they don’t want to know anybody but their own business… that’s one thing I’d like to say, Pauline, is that… I think that there’s some link between the fact that society itself is a bit sick, and the… amount of mental illness… what do you think?’
 
`I’ll ask you.. what do you think?’
 
`[Laughs]… I’m interviewing you… [laughs]! … I do think so…’
 
`You think so?’
 
`I think society is a bit sick… I mean it isn’t only me, I’ve spoken to several people that are living outside, and they’ve agreed that… that people…go about their own business and they don’t… just want to know anybody, and I think that’s… that’s… umm… I lived in Wimbledon before I came to Horton, and I had a lovely landlady, and I thought was a nice, comfortable bedroom… errr… bed sitting room… but I just could not get into any of the Wimbledon society… none at all…’
 
`What do you think the reasons are… for society being sick?’
 
`Well…’
 
`What would you say?’
 
`Well it…it might be partly Mrs Thatcher’s philosophy that you stand on your own feet and get to the top and back… you know… bugger everybody and… might be that… I suppose you edit out swear words do you?’
 
`It’s interesting that you’ve brought in a bit of politics though…’
`[Laughs]… [inaudible]…’
 
`How interested are you in politics?’
 
`Well, what… I learn what I can from the columnists in the newspapers, and a lot from radio and… what you can get from television, you know… and… I think really that… it… and… the… I listen… I never miss the news… and what… I think is a good thing, you may not agree, is that it makes me realise how very insignificant my own little bit of suffering is… and my own little business is…and my own little life is… in comparison with what’s going on… you know… all over the place.  I think it gets myself in perspective to realise… I’m only just one little woman, you know… among… ‘
 
`Ok I think we’ll come back to… [inaudible]’
 
`[Laughs]…’
 
`Ok… so let’s take you back… when you left Virginia Waters, you were able to go back to work…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`And worked for about three years…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`And then… you were told that… they didn’t need you any more?’
 
`Yes.’
 
`Then what happened after that?’
 
`Umm… that was in Eastbourne, so I came back to London to my mother’s… my mother… which I… I’ve… looking back I thought that said that I’m rather emotionally immature to come back home… ‘cause I would have been about twenty seven, twenty eight… I thought that proves my… I’m emotionally immature really.  Oh, there’s one thing the doctor in Virginia Waters told me, she said I was mentally… I had a mental age of thirteen years old she told me…’
 
`At the age of twenty two?’
 
`Mmm… and sometimes I think I still have, you know…’
 
`Why do you think so.. think that?’
 
`My… I sort of… I find it hard to… I seem to need support, you know, like a… I can’t seem to… if ever I tried to stand on my own anywhere, you know, outside, I seem to finish up taking a bottle of pills, you know…’
 
`So how long… when you went back to your… your mum, you were twenty seven like you said, then what happened? How long did you stay there?’
 
`I took a job in… in the Strand, in a book shop, and I liked… well I liked books, and… it was a Catholic book shop and I was a Catholic… but I… I sort of gradually got ill again and… finished up in another mental hospital.’
 
`How old were you then? [inaudible]’
 
`About thirty… about thirty…’
 
`Thirty…?  Which hospital… did you go to…?’
 
`Long Grove…’
 
`Where is that?’
 
`It’s just over there… they… they closed it down, you know, it’s just… next door practically…’
`And what was your diagnosis then?’
 
`Well they wouldn’t give me one.  I asked the doctor, what was wrong, and he sat and looked at me for a long time… and… that was that… but when I got out, I went to my GP, and… he said you’ve had schizophrenia, so I thought oh well… I didn’t believe it actually, but…’
 
`What was Long Grove like?’
 
`Terrible.  Dreadful.’
 
`In what way?’
 
`Umm… oh, it was horrible.  We got up at six in the morning, the sister so-called, came in and shouted `GET UP’… six o’clock in the morning, and we had to polish the floors, no cup of tea, no breakfast, we had to polish the floors before we did anything… and… she always shouted… she always shouted.’
 
`Were the other nurses like her? Did they behave like her?’
 
`We had a few younger ones that were very nice… but they didn’t seem to stay… they… they sort of came and went… you know… they were very short of staff actually at that time… very short…’
 
`What sort of a ward were you on, was it mixed or was it all female?’
 
`Umm…’
 
`Or was it dormitory?’
`It was a mixed ward, but… naturally female dormitories, you know… [pause]’
 
`How did you cope?’
 
`Well I didn’t actually, I… I mean it… they’d just brought in the… the… new deal sort of thing for mental hospital, and the furniture was beautiful, and… we had lovely arm chairs and… grounds like this and… I sort of sunk into… umm… sort of sitting comfortably and doing nothing, you know…[pause]… I didn’t make any friends…’
 
`Did you have any visits from… any of your old friends or family?’
 
`Yes… I had… yes, I had friends… err… quite a lot from my family and friends, yes… ‘
 
`How often did they visit you?’
 
`They used to come… my mother came… she died suddenly one Christmas when I was there… but before then she came once a week… and my sisters came and their husbands and… yes… and my friend from the office, Chartered Accountants… where I first worked… yes it was quite good, really…’ [pause]
 
`What were the doctors like?’
 
`Well… I don’t know what this… I couldn’t understand this doctor… but… and it was my fault again you see, because I don’t sort of talk back to them… I feel… that they think they’re very… important people and… that reacts on me that I think that I’m very inferior and I’ve got to listen and say nothing… which is silly of me, and it didn’t… the fact, [inaudible]… my mistake… my mistake. [pause].  He said `you’re stupid’, he said, `you never think’, `you must give up your religion…’ and… he was all sort of… I felt he was sort of against me… and… finally when he went… when I went to see him I just sat and said nothing at all [laughs]… which I think was my fault of course… I mean…’
 
`Why was…?’
`It was obviously his technique to… that was his technique, but I hadn’t come across it before and I didn’t know what to do…’
 
`Why do you think he wanted you to give up your religion?’
 
`Well he said that my religion was too high for me… and it was a substitute for sex, and he said what do you read of sex…?  Which of course, I thought was pretty… err.. you know… unpalatable… I mean… but there you are you see, that happened to be him, but when I told him I was leaving, he said `so am I thank God’… so I thought perhaps he, you know… he didn’t fit in, you know… I think he was a Polish… doctor… [inaudible]… ’
 
`I was just going to say, do you remember his name?’
 
`No… I think he was Polish… but I… obviously he didn’t fit in, you know… I mean this business about, you know, you need sex sort of thing well… I don’t think you need to be told whether you need sex or not, you know you do or you know you don’t… and to have sex as an alternative religion, is no option, really…’
 
`Were you very hurt about what he said to you?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Did you…’
 
`I just didn’t speak to him any more… he used to have me in the office and… I used to look at him and err… he couldn’t get anywhere with me, you know… but it’s my fault really for not speaking back, you know… why do you think I’m stupid, and…?  Why do you think…? You know… I needed to say things like that…’
 
`When he said those horrible things to you, was there anyone else present?’
 
`No…’
`Did you complain to…?’
 
`No…’
 
`…the nurse in charge or…?’
 
`I… I… that nurse was so fearsome, that sister… I never spoke to her at all… [laughs]… she was fearsome…’
 
`Mmm… what about the other nurses?’
 
`The one on the alternative shift was just as bad… and I say… the others seem to come and go, the nice young ones, you know… I think part of the problem… one of them said to me that, the two came together, and she said we didn’t realise it was so far from the town, you see… ‘cause [inaudible] was Epsom, you see…’
 
`How did you cope… each day, you know… what helped you to get through the day?’
 
`There was one woman there that rather took to me, but… she… yes, she kind of took me over you see, which is another thing that makes me wonder whether I’m… immature… [pause]…’
 
`What do you mean by… she took you over?’
 
`She… she sort of… she kind of… spent the time with me.  I think what it was with her, you see, I mean this sounds very snobbish but  it is… it is reality that… most of the patients there came from the East End… and… they were very sort of uncouth… it sounds awful to say this, but… that’s my experience, and I couldn’t relate to them… so… and she… was in the same boat, so we sort of spent a lot of time together, you know, but she was very possessive and… sort of… dominant sort of person… I… I… I know it sounds awful, but it is true, I couldn’t relate to them… they were so rude and… you know…’
 
`In what way were they rude?’
 
`I wasn’t nasty to them, but they were nasty to me… they used to mock me, you know…’
 
`In what way?’
 
`Umm… one… I mean… like down saying our prayers and this [inaudible] woman came back… oh we must say our prayers… so I used to say my prayers in bed after that… and then they used to… mock me when I was sweeping… I had to sweep the floor you know… because I was slow, they used to jeer at me, you know…’
 
`How did you respond?’
 
`Well I didn’t actually, I thought the best thing, to take no notice, you know…’
 
`Was that one of the ways in… how you coped, you’d just ignore…?’
`Yes… yeah… mmm… but there were so many of them, and so few of us, [laughs]… sort of [inaudible] that we… we were disadvantaged, you see… it was… it wasn’t a pleasant experience at all…’
 
`Just taking back, with time… you said the nurse… you made friends with was possessive and dominant or domineering… in what ways?’
 
`Umm… well she sort of… umm… tell the staff, you know… she told the sister that… she’s got to treat me differently because I wasn’t like the others, you see… well she’d no business to say that, in any case, I mean… the sister came over to me once and she said, `I want to treat you all the same’, you know, which was her policy… which I suppose was quite right really… but… [pause].  I got away from this woman and then she rang… she… I must give her credit, she was about fifty four… and when she left Long Grove she went in for nursing at St Elizabeth’s Children’s Hospital, outside London, and passed her exam as a nurse, and I thought that was pretty good really… and then she rang me up one day and said err… she was going to cut her throat… so I thought oh my God… so I… sort of took her to my sister’s, ‘cause my sister was away, I didn’t sleep all night, and I’d felt… I was very odd myself actually because I didn’t leave Long Grove because I was well, I left because I couldn’t take it any more, you know… and… she said I’ll ring you outside, so I said no, you just write to me… so… I never saw her again, you know… it’s rather sad really, but…’
 
`Did it upset you a lot?’
 
`Well I couldn’t… I felt I couldn’t… you know, the blind leading the blind, you know… I couldn’t carry her when I… could hardly cope myself, you know…’
 
`You know during your stay at Long Grove… what… what diagnosis did they give you then?’
 
`They… none, you see… when I asked the doctor what was wrong with me, he just sort of looked for a long time and said nothing… whether he couldn’t… [laughs]… the trouble is, we didn’t know… it was the GP when I came out of there… I went to a GP for something and he said `oh, you’ve had schizophrenia’… you see, and I thought oh well, I suppose, they communicate and… they told him… they wouldn’t tell me but they told him, you know…’
 
`So in the hospital they didn’t give you a diagnosis?’
 
`No…’
 
`What… were you treated… were you given any medication?’
 
`Umm… what was I given?  I was given Largactyl… and… Stelazine, I think… Stelazine… yes… and I got the suicide… the doctor took me off medication, this…this  Polish doctor, when I immediately got suicidal, so they gave me one ECT… and then… they moved me to a… oh yes that was a female ward… they’d moved me to a mixed ward, and… the senior doctor immediately put me back on medication…’
 
`What did they put you back on?’
 
`Oh, I don’t really know…’
 
`Can’t remember?’
 
`No… [pause]… do you think we could… I could have a smoke outside?’
 
`Ok, we’ll have a break…’
 
`Quiet…’
 
`Yes…’
 
Camera:  [inaudible]
 
[End of DVCPro tape 1]
 
[Start of DVCPro tape 2 – VHS Tape 1 continues]
 
`…forget all about it…’
 
`[inaudible] Ok…’
 
`We’re not running are we?’
 
Camera: `Yeah, we are now’
 
`Oh my God, you didn’t put that down did you?’
 
Camera: `No… that’s all right’
 
`Oh right..’
 
`Ok… Right… Kathy… we are going to take the interview forward now…’
 
`Yeah… sure…’
 
`We talked about… your stay in Long Grove…’
 
`Yes..’
 
`And you said how difficult it was…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Can you… tell me… what happened after you left… when you left, Long Grove…?’
 
`Yes, I went to stay with my sister in London… and it was a disaster from her point of view, because, she was in a lot of trouble with her marriage, and… teenage children, and… I… I followed my usual… what I’d done in Long Grove… which was just to sit there and look into space, you know… and… she kept telling me to pull myself together, you see… which was very frustrating for her… and didn’t… didn’t affect me, because I was sort of… [inaudible]… you know… so what did I do after that?  [pause] Umm… oh, I went to live in a… a hostel in … Hammersmith, in the upper mall by the river… very nice… yes… [pause]… and I did… different part time jobs to supplement my… disability benefit, you see… they allowed you to earn, I think… five pounds, you see…’
 
`What year was that?’
 
`Umm… [pause]… I can’t remember at all…’
 
`Or roughly how old do you think you were at the time?’
 
`I would have been about thirty five, I think… yeah…’
 
`So can you tell… tell me something more about… about it?’
 
`Umm… I used to burst into tears… I… for no… no sort of… specified reason, I used to burst into tears, you know… and cry and cry and cry…’
 
`Uh huh…’
 
[long pause]
 
`So… during that time, can you say what… what sort of life were you having then?’
 
`I was very depressed actually Pauline… very depressed.    Umm… [pause]… umm… what I did actually to begin with, I had a few pounds saved, and I used to go to the cinema and dancing, and stuff like that… and then… I’d buy clothes, and then I realised I was nearly broke… so… I went to the cinema one day, in the afternoon, and… they had a… an advertisement for afternoon usherette, so… I happened to… I sort of watched the usherette, and I thought well, it’s such a… un… sort of unbusy job that I could do it, so I … got the job, you know… and I stayed there for five years… yeah…’
 
`So during that time, where did you live?’
 
`In this hostel… in…’
 
`In the hostel?’
  
`By the river…’
 
`Yeah… what was it like?’
 
`Very nice…’
 
`Can you tell… tell  me something more about life in the hostel?’
`Marvellous…’ [both talking together]
 
`It was… umm… it was really I think for people that went to work, I think that was… the… requirement… and… they were different… very nice women… the… the… it was run by the Irish Sisters of Charity… and… the rooms were small but you had what you needed, you know… small, but had what you needed… and the place was very clean, and it was very cheap, so I had no… no reason to complain.  But I used to sort of… I used to get PMT… and of course I didn’t know then what PMT was…’
 
`And what is it?’
 
`Pre-menstrual…’
 
`Tensions?’
 
`Yeah… and I’d tend to burst into tears, and cry and cry and cry, you know…’
 
`How were you able to… come out of that depression, that crying state?’
 
`I think… that relieves the tension, all that crying, you know, and then you can pick yourself up and… rest of the day… yes…’
 
`Was it a mixed hostel? Male and…?’
 
`No… it was just for women that went to work, you know…’
 
`How many women were in those… things?’
 
`Err… twenty… about twenty… [pause]… very nice it was… yes…‘
 
`Yeah… how long did you stay there for?’
 
`Oh, quite a few years actually… they closed down in the end because they couldn’t… they had this big house, err… Queen Anne House, next door, which I think the nuns lived in, and I think the… it… probably the rates and that sort of thing… and the cost of living went up and they said… they closed it… they couldn’t keep it going, so…’
 
`So during that time, whilst you were living in the hostel, were you still on medication?’
 
`Yes, I… I was an outpatient at… Turn Cross Hospital… and I had [inaudible] different medication… I think it was Disipal [ph] I had one a day…’
 
`And what about the side effects, did you experience any side effects?’
 
`I didn’t notice anything at all… really.. no… but after I got fed up with working in the cinema, I got an afternoon job as a clerk in… in South Kensington, and it was so difficult to… I told the doctor I was giving up the job because I just couldn’t do it, so she said `well I’ll change your medication’, whether that’s genuine or whether it’s a psychological thing I don’t know… but she changed it, and… I was… I stayed in that job for about six years then… but now and again I used to burst into tears… for no specific reason… but the chap in charge of this office… was… I was very… reassured because he used to talk openly about his nephew that was schizophrenic… so I used to say, well I… you know, I’m mentally ill… and he didn’t mind…’
 
`How… how useful was that to you that… other people can talk about mental illness?’
 
`Very much.. yes… very much… yeah…’
 
`And what was the attitude in society at the time, or the people around you, what was it like?’
 
`Well…I… in the hostel, I… it… it… [inaudible] I used to… go to the hospital once a month… and… you know, gossip gets round… you drop a word and it’s all round… and everybody knew in the end, that I was a psychiatric patient, and… I was very… I didn’t want anyone else to know, you know… I didn’t tell anybody, that… conscious… you know, on purpose… it leaked out and it seemed to be well known… you know… I had some psychiatric trouble… ‘
 
`So, how would you describe… life in… the first two hospitals that you’ve been to… umm… ie…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…one in Virginia Waters and Long Grove?’
 
`Yes’
 
`To that of being on the outside, trying to…?’
 
`Umm… I found it very hard, because outside people are so… my mind would… very often, for no reason, go completely blank… and.. I’d sit at the table and… I… I tried to sort of go through the motions of having a brain that worked when it wasn’t… and I found it very difficult… you know, and I hardly ever spoke to people because I couldn’t… I don’t know why, but I hardly ever spoke to anyone… [pause]…’
 
`So after life in… at the hostel…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`What happened after…?’
 
`Umm… oh… umm.. I went… I went to the Charing Cross Hospital and told the doctor that it was closing, and the social workers took me to the Cheshire Home in Wimbledon, the old Cheshire Home, that’s been destroyed, well it’s very old, and that was terrible.  I mean, physically… terrible… it was… appalling, but… and that’s another thing you see.. if I was more down to earth, I would have said to the assistant warden, who was a friendly man, why are these places so dreadful?  And I just thought it was dreadful, and he… would have told me what I know now… that they were… making do while they collected presumably enough cash to build a nice new place on the same site… but you see I didn’t… I’m not down to earth you see.. that’s where… [inaudible]…’
 
`What do you mean?’
 
`I mean to sort of… brood over the fact that I’m living in a dreadful place and not sort of say well there must be a reason for it, why is it, you know… and ask somebody… I’m a dreamer… I’m a dreamer…’
 
`What do you dream about?’
 
`Well… a dreamer is somebody that’s… hasn’t got their feet on the ground [laughs]…’
 
`In what ways was the Cheshire Home dreadful?’
 
`It was so dirty, you know, the carpets were filthy, the furniture, the paint on the furniture was peeling off… and… it was just ghastly, you know… but as I say, that was… obviously a makeshift place, while they… couldn’t manage to build a very nice new place, which they have done…’
 
`Tell me something about the people, ie the staff that cared for you all there at the time?’
 
`Umm… they couldn’t keep a warden, I don’t suppose they paid them much, but they couldn’t keep the… I think they were trying to get… they obviously advertised for… it was a home for people who came from mental hospitals you see.. that was the idea… sort of rehabilitation, but… the assistant warden himself had been mentally ill, many years ago, and of course he was very popular because he was very, you know… had a lot of insight into… a kind man… We finally got  a psychologist who was a very nice… and… but the condition was that unless you worked full time you had to go… to Horton… you see… and I was going to the job centre one day, and I saw an advert for a bed sitting room, and… so I diverted and went and got the bed sitting room, and left the…’
`And that’s how you happened to come to Horton?’
 
`Umm… yes…’
 
`Ok… can you tell me a bit more about…you know, how you happened to come here…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…and…?’
 
`Umm… I just got so miserable that… I took a bottle of, I think it was Stelazine, you know… [pause]…’
 
`You want to say something more about that?’
 
`Well I was… I was on my own a lot and err… I think as they say, a woman of my age… in society is not particularly welcome, on her own anywhere… you know, ummm… and… I tried to join… join different things and couldn’t seem to make contacts, you know.. so… I think I sort of… got thrown in on myself and… thought life wasn’t worth living in… living… you know…’
 
`So how did you get to Horton?  Did you come voluntarily or were you…?’
 
`Umm… they took me to… I think it was St George’s, Tooting, I think… and a psychiatrist saw me there, and sent me here… yes…’
 
`So that was your third visit… third admission…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…to a hospital?’
`Yes…[pause]… and I was there eighteen years, and I’ve been in Horton, I think, five years… ‘
 
`You were in Charing Cross for eighteen years?’
 
`No, in Horton…’
 
`In Horton, for eighteen years?’
 
`Yes.. yes…’
 
`So how were you admitted, was it voluntary?’
 
`Yes.. yes… I’ve never been under section, never… ‘
 
`Never been under section?’
 
`No… no…’
 
`And you know the difference between section and voluntary?’
[both talking together]
 
`Well it’s the… probably… they have to be… protected against themselves or society needs protection against them… [inaudible]… well that’s what I know…’
 
`So why Horton then and not somewhere else, why Horton?’
 
`Well I suppose it’s sort of what catchment area or something… something like that…’
 
`What were your first impressions?  Tell us… tell me something about your first impression when you came into Horton… what were your fears, what were your… you know, apprehension, whatever…?’
`Umm… I went to the admission ward… and there was nothing to do, and… people kept coming in and then going to other wards, or going home, and I didn’t like it.  And… then they decided that I’d be here for a long time, and put me in a long term ward… that was a woman’s… well it was a… a woman’s… two dormitories, one for men and one for women…’
 
`Who made the assessment of you… to stay long term?’
 
`Doctor Lopier [ph]… he was an interesting character… ‘
 
`Do you want to tell me something more about the assessment?’
 
`When I first came in he said, `do you think any people are talking about you?’, I said no… oh, no… I said, well people do talk about you, don’t they?  And I think he understood that… I wasn’t paranoid, and then he said, `is anyone following you?’… and I said no… and I said, doctor, I said… I… I suffer from depression and anxiety, so that was that… and then… I used to… [pause]… now what… what… well I suppose they… sort of studied me… and… realised I was very depressed…’
 
`What made you think… they decided that you should stay, in Horton, on a long term basis… why?’
 
`I didn’t ask really… you know… a doctor… an Indian lady, she said… `you’ll be here a long time Katherine, you must go to another ward’, and so I went… [laughs]… yes..’
 
`What was…?’
 
`…[inaudible] [both talking together]… I… I’ve never had sort of… sort of, you know, I’ve never… thought people were following me or talking about me and… I suppose you… he may have got, I suppose they get records passed from other hospitals, you see… or obviously the fact that I tried to commit suicide, was what sent me here… I supposed that sort of… carried weight with them didn’t it, and they knew that was… it was sort of… [pause]… gone back to many years when I first did it [lorry reversing sounds]… I suppose they… that… what they diagnosed [inaudible]… depressive I suppose, but… they do… they do know from hospital to hospital, they have a record don’t they, so I suppose that was err…’
 
`Were you put on any medication, at the time?’
 
`Umm… [pause]… I must have been, yeah… I know at one time I was on Mogadon for sleeping, that was quite a help for some time.  I’ve been on Largactyl again…  and… I’ve had this long term anti-depressant… supposed to last a month or two and get [inaudible]… and they took me off that ‘cause it didn’t have any effect, you know… so in… in… Horton I think… I don’t know what else I’ve been on really… I know I’ve been on Largactyl…’
 
`What was the role of your relatives or friends, during  that time?’
 
`Well I didn’t… a friend of mine that… she was at… we did had to share a room, for a few weeks in the Cheshire Home, and… we actually had a bed sitting room each in this house in Wimbledon, and… when she… sort of realised… the landlady obviously told her I’d tried to commit suicide… and, she… she has been coming to see me all the time… about once a month… she came yesterday… so I’ve had her visit… and my brother that died last year, he and his wife… had been coming about every two or three months for many years… about twenty years… otherwise… my brother came over from Australia, he and his wife came to see me once… my sister came down from Kings Lynn once to see me… so I’ve done… I’ve been pretty lucky haven’t I?’
 
`When… when did your mum die?’
 
`My mother… err.. when I was in Long Grove… yes, she died, quite suddenly’
 
`How did it affect you?’
 
`I was terribly upset… yeah, terribly…’
 
`Did you get to go to the funeral?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`You did?’
 
`I wouldn’t go to any more, it’s dreadful… it was just the thought of… the sight of seeing my mother’s body being put into the ground… you know.. it was so horrible… When my father died, I don’t remember, I was about nineteen then, but, I wasn’t so affected as when my mother died…’
 
`Why do you think was?’
 
`’Cause she was closer to us, you see… she was always there… you see…’
 
`What was it…did your dad do… [inaudible]?
 
`He was a painter and decorator…’
 
`Yes, of course, yes…’
 
`The day he died, I cried all day [laughs]… he had a stroke and I saw him in hospital, I was trying not to cry…’
 
`And what was the problem with your mum, what… what caused…?’
 
`Well she had… she died [inaudible]… actually… it wasn’t diagnosed… you see…’
 
`Yeah…so… you’re still at Horton…? How big… were there many… how big was the Horton Hospital?’
 
`Umm… well… as you came in, you would see the… a very long building, that they’re going to pull it down in time… you see… have you… did you… I’m sure you saw it, yeah?  It’s been closed some time now…’
 
`So which section of Horton were you in?’
 
`Well this is the haven you see… all these.. these houses… this is the haven, and… oh, I… I don’t get… I’m sorry I missed the point of what you said…?’
 
`How big was Horton… which section were you, of Horton… when you first came in, when you were first admitted?’
 
`Well.. they… it… sort of… there’s lots and lots of wards, umm… connected by very long corridors, you see… ‘
 
`What was the name of the ward that you were on?’
 
`Umm…’
 
`Can you remember?’
 
`N ward was the comm… admission ward, then I went to G ward, and then, I think, for some reason, I forget now why it was, they moved us to… moved us out of there and… I was in M ward… and Maple they… they call it Maple…’
 
`Mmm’
 
`Yeah… and then I came here… yeah…’
 
`And do you want to tell me something about the nurses attitude and how they cared for you, and so on…?’
 
`Mostly, they’re very good… mostly… you occasionally come across one, the same as everywhere where you work, you know, the hospital, not… somebody’s a bit nasty, you know, wherever you work, and… and… I’m… I was thinking lately, you know, about my attitude towards staff, and my mother was a proud woman, and I’m proud, and so… if people don’t speak to me as if… I’m just a human being the same as they are, I tend to… umm… make it clear that I don’t like it… [laughs]… you know what I mean?’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`I mean… I… you can’t really blame the staff when I… when you look at some of the patients they… they look as if they can’t think at all, and… they’re not sort of aware of where they are and… you can understand the nurse sort of, umm… being abrupt, you know… saying well `sit there’ and `go to bed’ and that… not that they do in this house, they don’t but… I mean I… [inaudible]… and one nurse said to me in Horton, some years ago, she said, `you don’t see yourself as a mental patient do you Kathleen?’, she said, `to you it’s just a fleeting experience’, well I thought well eighteen years is hardly fleeting [laughs]… but most nurses are I think… I mean it’s not a job I’d like really… really…’
 
`Talking about jobs, umm.. what type of jobs or work did you do, whilst in Horton?’
 
`Well, it was.. I didn’t like any of it… we did.. workshop, which was packing… things.. you know… very, very sort of monotonous, didn’t like it and… the OT wasn’t properly organised, you see… and… you see I’m very limited there because… when I did clerical work and accounts and wages… it’s a matter of, well you’ve got to be one hundred per cent efficient, and I’m rather prejudiced against people that aren’t efficient, although it’s not their fault because it’s a different kind of work you see… I know it’s me that’s wrong… you see, I know it’s me that’s wrong… so… it wasn’t efficient and I didn’t like it…’
 
`It’s interesting to hear you talk about being efficient and… sort of doing accounts…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`When did you do that… term of work, and where?’
 
`Well, when I left school I was six years in a Chartered Accounts in the city, in London and that was paperwork, and writing business letters in French, which I liked at school… and… then I did book keeping and wages clerk… and wages, in Eastbourne… you see… so… I mean… it’s not fair of me to criticise people doing other jobs, for not getting it hundred per cent right, because it’s a different kind of work, isn’t it… but I find I do it, you know… why have they done that… you know… why did she say that when… she was going there when she didn’t… you know… it’s how… I’m narrow minded in that way when it come to work… yes…’
 
`It’s interesting…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…to listen to you, that you’ve been through a number of hospitals, and yet you’ve had time in between, to do different jobs, do you want to tell me something more, how you were able to do that, and how you coped?’
 
`Well when I had the book keeping in Eastbourne… I was in a state of great anxiety… but I think… a doctor told me that… he said to me, `don’t try too hard’ once, a long time afterwards, `because anxious people try… try too hard’… well I think it was anxiety that pushed me on… you see.. it drove me to do the work… you see… I was very anxious, but I wasn’t depressed, because it was a lovely office… lovely office…’
 
`How important do you think work is?… for people who… is probably still going through similar experiences like you? [inaudible]’
 
`I think it’s very important to have a job, I do… yes…’
 
`Can you develop on it?’
 
`Well… I mean… you wake up in the morning, and they’re very kind in West Field… there’s… it isn’t that… at eighteen I’m not happy with the institutional… regime you see, and they are very kind to me… and… when you… when you’re working, you get up, it’s half past seven, I’ve got to get up to get to work, you know… so you get up and you wash or bath… and you dress and you get to work… well when you’ve nowhere to go, the framework isn’t there… you see… yeah…’
 
`So… alongside… when you were able to work, how did you socialise and… how did it compare with being in hospital, or in hostels?’
 
`I didn’t really, no… when I worked full time after I became ill in the first place… I… I was too tired you know… I used to go home and… cook a meal, and just sit and look into space, yes…’
 
`Did you always live on your own?’
 
`I was…’ [both talking together]
 
`…outside of hospital or hostels?’
 
`I had a bed sitting room in Eastbourne with a nice girl, she was a radiographer in the hospital there… and… she must have found me rather a strange companion really… my mind was tired anyway after working so hard… and… as I said, I must have been depressed because I… I… I just cooked my meal and sat and did nothing, you know…’
 
`Were you ever married?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`You were?’
 
`Yes…’
`How old were you when you got married?’
 
`Well… actually it’s rather a sore subject…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`And he’s dead now…’
 
`Did you have any children?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`How many?’
 
`That’s another sore subject… yes…’
 
`Ok… was it one or two?’
 
`One…’
 
`Is it a he or she?’
 
`A daughter.’
 
`Is she still alive?’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Do you get to see her?’
 
`No…’
 
`Ok… [pause]… Whilst in Horton, were you able to go out to… to the village, and…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`…have different visits…?’
 
`…usually on Saturday afternoon… yeah…’
 
`You want to tell me something more about it?’
 
`I… I found out it was very difficult… I used to walk extremely slowly and I thought well… and another thing I suppose is partly in my mind… I thought well if I walk slowly, very slowly… nobody’s going to think well, there’s something wrong with that woman, because, there’s no… nothing wrong with walking slowly, but my mind was very… it was very difficult to get my mind to work, you know… and I used to feel terribly ill when I got back… terribly ill…’
 
`What do you mean, terribly ill?’
 
`Umm… I just felt awful, you know… ‘
 
`Physically or mentally?’
 
`Both… yeah… [pause]…it’s a problem… umm… I go now… we have… a hospital, well… Haven transport now, every morning, and it brings back at a quarter to twelve and… so there’s not real strain now, you know… I don’t find it a strain at all…’
 
`You know… earlier you mentioned that when you were in… when you were first admitted, to the hospital in Virginia Water…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`There was a sense of community there, because you made a lot of friends there…’
 
`Yes… yes…’
 
`How did it compare with Horton?’
 
`Umm… not… not quite as good in Horton, no… but I did… I went out to tea with the girls in Epsom, you know, and… yeah, we used go out and have a cup of tea in Epsom you know… yes… [pause]… I’ve no complaints about Horton, I mean the… general sort of way we were treated and everything, was… pretty good…’
 
`What about information, whilst you were in Horton… were there… a sort of opportunity where you can discuss your concerns…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Do you want to tell me about it?’
 
`Well… you know Banstead Hospital closed down, well they moved the patients here, and they… they brought a few innovations… including the Patients’  Committee… and I used to go to that… and they used to have staff and… a couple of staff… and… that was quite good because we could put forward suggestions for improvements, that was good…’
 
`So what role did you play on the Committee, did you have a special responsibility?’
 
`No.. I was just one… just one of the patients… yes…’
 
`How often did they meet?’
 
`I can’t remember now, I think it was once a fortnight… yes…’
 
`What sort of issues did they discuss there?’
`Well people used to bring up what they thought mattered, you know… I mentioned that… once… that, it seemed to me that the people working here, in OT and that… the work… workshop…were working fifty two weeks a year, without a holiday… [laughs]… and I said well… why don’t they have a fortnight’s holiday with pay, so that came in… and then I wondered afterwards, some of them perhaps would rather have gone on working ‘cause they wouldn’t know what to do without us… [laughs]… anyhow, it came in… and the… the… WVS had a shop and a tea shop here… and… it used to open until after two, only… the tea shop, so… when I was down there I noticed patients, earlier… they were buying sort of soft drinks in bottles, you know… so I said well I think it’s… should be open sort of at ten instead of twelve, because they’re spending money they can’t afford on soft drinks, when there’s no tea, because the tea used to be tuppence you see… so that came in so… I remember those two things I… managed to improve I hope…’
`Were you, as a patient at the time, made aware as to what your rights were… and so no…?’
 
`I don’t know really.  We have now what we call the Haven Charter… it’s a sort of… it’s not official… I mean it’s not legal, but it’s… it sets out your civic rights and your other rights, you know, like privacy… umm… that sort of thing, so that’s pretty good…’
 
`Talking about privacy… how… how have you been able to maintain your privacy, your identity and so on?’
 
`Well I have no problems with identity, but… I maintain my privacy by locking my door when I’m in my room, when I want to… I mean I don’t lock it all the time, but… if anybody’s around that I find is a… going to be a nuisance, you know I lock the door so… umm… I can open the door and get rid of them quickly, you know… [laughs]… I don’t… what do they mean by a loss of identity, Pauline… what does that mean?’
 
`I think it means when you’re not sure as to who you are, that sort of thing…’
 
`You mean when you think well I’m just a patient, and… that’s all… is that what it is?’
 
`Not quite…’
`Oh..’
 
`It’s a personal thing… it’s a personal thing…’
 
`Oh…’
 
`Yeah… Yes, so… you spent eighteen years in Horton…’
 
`Yes…’
`Ok… so when did you move to West Field?’
 
`When… when it opened…’
 
`When… have you got any idea?’
 
`It was in May actually, five years ago, I think…’
 
`Five years ago…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`And how were you… how were you allocated to the different houses?’
 
`I don’t really know… the… the theory was that we had a choice, whether we went and where we went… in practice it was a question of… you know, practical point of view, you know… so… I didn’t want to come at all… I got in a terrible state of anxiety about coming… terrible…’
 
`Why was that?’
 
`I don’t know why it was… and… in the end they sort of got me to the house and… said, pointed to this lady and said, you’re going to share with her…and when I saw the place it was so nice… I thought, thank goodness, you know… it’s a nice, place, and I was really thrilled… yeah…’
 
`But before they told you that you were… you were going to West Field…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Didn’t they show you what the accommodation was?’
`Not… no, not until we came, no… no…’
 
`But why didn’t you want to?’
 
`There’s no reason for it.. it’s a kind of a… a sort of.. an obsessive fear of the unknown, I think, you see… excessive… I was in a terrible state… yeah… [pause]… They had a social gathering to open the place, to introduce us… and I refused to come… and I was running riot… I don’t normally run anywhere, but I was in such a panic, I was running round the grounds… in the end I had to stop running… and… when… when I saw the flat I thought oh, this is wonderful…’
 
`So how many of you share the flat now?’
 
`Umm… well that flat that we’ve got is just the two because the office… it was a staff home you see… it was a staff home, and… where the office is, where you were… they had taken the bedroom for the office… all the other flats, they’ve got three bedrooms, but ours, we’ve only got two… two bedrooms, so there’s two of us… you see…’
 
`So how does… your present accommodation compares with where you were before?’
 
`Oh, it’s wonderful…’
 
`Do you want to say something more about that?’
 
`Oh it’s marvellous…’
 
`In what ways?’
 
`Well… nice, comfortable… a room of your own… nice, sort of nice carpet on the floor, and… kitchen that you can… use… you know… in the hospital you couldn’t make a cup of tea you see… if you got an affable sort of nurse she’d say, `come and make a cup of tea’, she’d give you the key, but it wasn’t part of the… regime… I mean here, you can…  a friend calls in, and you say, well have a cup of tea… you know… I mean, it’s very much, very much sort of your own home really… it isn’t quite…  I mean you’re not completely free because… of course, I mean you’re ill and you… need staff… but… I have no complaints.’
 
`Do you still feel very ill?  Do you still feel ill?’
 
`Ummm..’
 
`’Cause you mentioned about being ill… do you feel ill?’
 
`Well I’m on [inaudible] for depressions, and… they keep me bright… I have them, three times a day and they keep me pretty bright, but as you know, they can’t cure this sort of illness… they can control the symptoms so that the misery is there underneath… and… occasionally when I go into my bed, you know… I think, oh, [whispers] I wish I was dead… I wish I was dead… not all the time, but sometimes you know…’
 
`Why is that?’
 
`I don’t know… [pause]…’
 
`Are you able to talk… as… do you have group therapy here where you talk in therapy?’
 
`No… no… but if you feel, you know, that you’re… you don’t sort of feel well… I… I really feel very odd you know… you go and tell one of the staff… and then they either… you can talk to them, and then if it goes on you can see the doctor when he comes, you see… that’s the beauty of having staff where you’re living…’
 
`So do you think… how would you describe the differences in terms of your experiences from the… from your first admission, then Long Grove, and then Horton…how would it… and Charing Cross, didn’t you say?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`How would it compare to where you are now?’
 
`I think I’m… I think this is… it’s much better than the hospital, because as I say, it isn’t a… ward… you see… I’ve got my own bedroom… a normal… a nice… have you seen our sitting room, it’s quite nice?’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`And a nice kitchen and… it’s more normal… you know… and the staff aren’t sort of like… in the old days, the… years ago… the staff are sort of… stand there and watch you, you know… which of course, there’s none of that… they’re there if you want them and… [pause]… I think… since I’ve been, you know… this is very… the best… the best I can really hope for because I… I couldn’t cope with normal life, on… now, you know… especially now that I’m seventy you see… I think this is the best… I’ve no complaints…’
 
`Have you got a vision of leaving here…?’
 
`No… I dream of it… I dream of… having a place that’s really my own, where I eat when I like, and… I live on my own and I have friends in but… I don’t have to share with anybody, that sometimes I wish wasn’t there, which every… we all feel… even if it’s our family, don’t we… [laughs]… but I know it’s not reasonable you see… it’s not… not feasible… I mean, if I lived alone, as I say, I think society is a bit sick and I don’t think that… especially a woman of my age would be very welcome anywhere… I think I’m better off here than I ever could be… outside…’
`It’s interesting you kept referring to society being sick…’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Can you develop that a bit more…?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`How you see it as being sick?’
 
`I mean, you go to a… umm… I don’t know… did you… watch Oliver James, there was a Clinical Psychologist on TV the other night… he is also on the radio…’
 
`[inaudible]…’
 
`He said that… there are many thousands of people on anti-depressants and there are many others that ought to be, you see… and… his conclusions about what [inaudible] was… but… umm… I mean… most time you go into a shop, you know… they… if even… pleasant looking young woman, they sort of look through… no sort of… just look through you, you know… as if you’re an object and they act like objects and… and… yes, you want this, wrap it up, take the money… and… ‘cause you see… I look back quite a long way when there was a sort of a very human interaction between shopkeepers and … other people… you know… a sort of… we’re human beings… and… well we’re doing business but never mind… err… please… nice to see you and… you know, it does seem to me that it’s gone… [phone ringing] some people seem to see themselves as objects now, you know… they never smile when… you know, you go into a shop and… I said to some [inaudible]… when I go shopping, because I go into a shop and smile and they look at  me as if to say, well, what’s the matter with you,  you know…  [inaudible]…’
 
`How would you describe that sort of attitude?’
`Well I think they’re just… I think most people are depressed… [inaudible]… whether they realise it or not…’
 
`And if you were in a position, to make changes…’
 
`But I sort of… I think… I don’t know why it is really… [pause] and if you… I went to Worthing the other day, the staff took me down there, and… I went into the shops for some… picture postcards and… the girl said she’d find me a map, I said, have you got a map?  She went upstairs and came down and… she looked at me, and I said, well I’m sorry to give you all that trouble when I don’t really want it now, you see… well I thought that was quite a normal thing to say, but she just looked at me, you know… as if to say, well you know… she… she didn’t tell me oh, that’s quite all right… you know… I mean people don’t do that any more… I mean they… they… she just sort of took my money for the postcards and… it makes me wonder if I’m the odd one, and when I’m not really, it’s them… you know… them… [inaudible]…’
 
`I just want to take you back on… on a couple of things… when… during the period when you attempted suicide…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Were you… were you put in a secure room, were you locked away?’
 
`No…’
 
`Never had that experience?’
 
`I went to this… I forget what ward it… the emergency ward I think they called it in the Fulham Hospital, it’s a little square ward, but it wasn’t locked…’
 
`But after you’ve come out of that in…in…?’
`No…’
`…mental hospital?’
 
`I’ve never been locked up… never, no…’
 
`What was life like for those other patients that you came into contact with during your journey through those different hospitals?’
 
`Well… I… I find them very, very said, you know… and even here… they break my heart, most of them… they… you know, I think well… some of them are foreign in our ward, men… and I try and wonder where they came from, what happened to them in the war, you know… and then… even the one… there are one or two that are very irritating, perhaps one actually… but I think to myself well… umm… well what’s made her like this, you know… what were they like before they were ill, you know… I feel so sorry for them… very sorry…’
 
`Do you talk about these issues… do you talk to them… or you talk to each other… what kind of conversation do you have?’
 
`Well a lot of them just don’t talk for some reason… and some are so infuriating because they repeat the same things every year… every hour and every day, that you… in the end you say, for God’s sake, go away… you do… I do… but, there’s a few… I mean your heart just breaks, you know…’
 
[pause]
 
`You… you mentioned that you do not see a life out…  on the outside, for you…is that correct?’
 
`No… I don’t, no…’
`Are you saying that… that this is where you’re going to be spending the rest of your life… ?’
 
`Well I don’t see that I should complain… I mean… I think sometimes, you know, suppose I had to go into an old people’s home, you know, with just old people… or nursing home, you know… umm… I’m better off here… I mean, quite frankly, I mean I wouldn’t stay here if I had a better alternative, but there isn’t one, is there?  There isn’t one is there?’
 
`I don’t know…’
 
`No… there isn’t one…’
 
`You don’t think so?’
 
`Well the only thing I really would like is my own place, which is really mine, and then I’d be back to square one, they’d give me a bottle of pills and I’d be depressed and lonely and… might be the… my… my turn to go down the grave. I do get suicidal occasionally… occasionally, yes.  But I find the best thing is to look up all the time, to turn my mind outward all the time, not onto stuff… you know… I [inaudible] people on the radio or television, or a book… you see… turn it out… I find that’s the best… best remedy… yes…’
 
`So, do you see yourself as…what you would call a long term patient… umm…?’
 
`Resident…?’
 
`Resident…’
 
`Yes I do… yes.  I think we are meant to be here… I think they say on their brochure or whatever their… poster… letters… a residential service, for people with injury and mental problems… so I think that is the idea actually… I think that’s the… the place is set up for people like me…’
 
`Now… you seem to be… without putting words in your mouth… but you seem to have come to terms with the fact that…?’
 
`Oh yes… I mean I… I… [both talking together]… [inaudible]… really… I mean at my age… I mean… the club’s open… have you seen the club?  The social centre…?’
`Not yet…’
 
`It’s open three times a day… if you want to go and talk I’ve got a few people there that can talk… pop over there have a drink, talk, smoke [laughs]…’
 
`What’s the social life here like? What do you do socially?’
 
`There isn’t any… no… but they do have umm… parties, and… yeah, they have parties in the social centre… yes…’
 
`Ok…’
 
Camera: `I’ll pause it there… we’re on fifty five minutes…’
 
[End of DVCPro tape 2]
 
[Start of DVCPro tape 3]
 
`Ok Kathy… you mentioned that… you were quite contented, were you…’
 
`Yes… yes…’
 
`…and you did not see any future of you going out, living in the community…?’
 
`No… no…’
 
`Is that correct?’
 
`Yes…’
 
`And…’
 
`Well they [inaudible] in the communities… if that’s what they tell us…’
 
`Yes…and how… what are your views about that?’
 
`Well as I said, I think that anyone tone deaf would be less… less advantageous… really… [inaudible]…’
 
`For you?’
 
`Yes…’
 
[pause]
 
`What… how would you describe your experiences over all, from the time when you were first admitted to where you are now?  How would you describe those experiences?’
 
`Umm… well actually, I think it’s taken a lot out of my life… really… you know, I feel I’ve spent a lot of time being ill, and… taking medicine and… living with other people that aren’t well… yes…’
 
`Do you want to say something more, how it has affected you?’
 
`Well… what I think… I… I just thought of saying is that, I’ve always been a low spirited person, you see… always, some people are, aren’t they?  And… the… all these anti-depressants, give me a sort of an artificial cheerfulness, which I must be very thankful for, but which aren’t… weren’t really me… before I was ill and had to take them, you know…’
 
`How would you describe Kathy The Kathy that is…?’
 
`Well now I… I think… I… I think I’ve always been considered sort of at least average intelligence, but when it comes to being practical, and… making down to earth decisions, I think I’m pretty hopeless really…’
`What do you mean… hopeless?’
 
`Well… I don’t know about being perhaps emotionally immature, but… when I’m in a situation where I’m not very happy, I’m all right here, but… I sort of don’t… on my own… see the best way to get out of it and go somewhere else, you know… and when I see people that are practical, they sort of run their down to earth lives and… without needing a lot of support and… I don’t know, would that be normal that some people need a lot of support through their lives, is that perhaps a normal type of person?  Or is it… no…. ‘
 
`What do you think?’
 
`I don’t know… I think there’s a… I think it may be sort of an emotional immaturity, really… and… [pause]… that you can’t really stand on your own feet, you know… no…’
 
`What would you say were the… were the positives and the negatives of your over all experience in the mental health system…?’
 
`Well, apart from Virginia Water where I… really didn’t want to leave… I discharged myself from Long Grove because I… didn’t want to stay any more… and… Horton I didn’t like… but… I had people to talk to and I just couldn’t think of any way to get out of it really, so… stayed until they put me here, and now I’m here I realise how well off I am, you know, compared to… and I feel very grateful that the staff are there so that when I get really down, they… can sort of talk to me… you know…’
 
`Can I just take you back to Long Grove, when you said you discharged yourself…what was it that made you discharge yourself?’
 
`Umm… well I… I thought… now my sister lives in Roehampton and… her husband had left, and I thought well I’d be… I’d be much happier there with her, so… I left, you know… but  they didn’t say, well, you’re too old to go, you know… then when I said I’m leaving on Tuesday, he said `I’m leaving too, thank God’ [laughs]…’
 
`So when… when you discharged yourself, and you… like you said, you went to your sister’s…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Did it make any difference… and… were you…?’
 
`No… no… because I was a nuisance, you see…’
 
`Can you say a bit more?’
 
`I mean I… I… she was in trouble with her marriage, her husband had gone off with somebody else, her two children were teenagers and it was affecting them, their behaviour… and… and I just wasn’t any help you see, which was what she really needed at that time, was help herself, instead of helping me, which she… she couldn’t help me and… it would… you know… it wasn’t any good…’
 
`So…so… just going back…’
 
[Kathy coughs] `Excuse me…’
 
`It’s all right… so just going back a bit… when you left your sister, where did you go then?’
 
`I went to this hospital in Hammersmith… by the river in Hammersmith’
 
`Ok…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`Uh huh… so… what were the positives, throughout your experiences over all?  Were there any positives?’
 
[pause]
 
`Are there any positives?’
 
`No… only here… yeah..’
 
`Just being here?’
 
`Yes… [pause]  I… I liked the bookshop work, I got… I worked in a bookshop in London… I was about twenty eight then… and I liked that… and then I sort of gradually went down hill and finished up in Long Grove… you know…’
 
`As we went on, you seemed to be bringing out… to me… the different types of jobs that you did…’
 
‘Yes…’
 
`But… was mentioned earlier… do you want… can you just recap and just tell me the different type of jobs that you did?’
 
`Yes, before I was ill, and when… I say I got depressed in the mornings and didn’t realise it was… quickly developing into something worse… I was a clerk in a chartered accountant’s in the city… and the next full time job I did, where I really enjoyed it, was book keeping and wages and typing in Eastbourne, and after that, when they sacked me for anxiety, umm… I … took a job in the book shop in the Strand in London… that was full time, and then I went down… and went to Long Grove… and… otherwise it’s been part time, [inaudible]… to supplement my ability benefits you see…’
 
`How did you manage financially?’
 
`Well, it’s a question of where you live, you see… the… hostel was very good because you… the… the… total rent was four pounds a week, and for that you got… a good breakfast… well, a good breakfast… it was a boiled egg, which was very nice… and… a good dinner in the evening, and… they had… somebody kept the place very clean… so… they gave me that from the social security… and then… working as a part time usherette, I got… about three pounds extra, which meant that I could buy clothes, and… umm… I don’t know what else I did actually… I expect I went dancing or something, you know… so… it’s a question of… you know.. when I… when I was in Wimbledon before I came here, I had a nice bed sitting room, with a wonderful landlady, and it was five pounds sixty five, all I had to pay for was my gas fire… so… with the social security and the part time job, I managed very well, you know…’
 
`Were you married at the time?’
 
`No… my marriage collapsed when I was in Virginia Water…’
 
`Ok…’
 
`Yes…’
 
`So, how old were you then, at the time?’
 
`Twenty two…  yes…‘
 
`So you were married before you went to Virginia Waters?’
 
`I got married at nineteen, yes…’
 
`Ok..’
`When I was nineteen, yes..’
 
`Ok…’
 
[pause]
`And over your time from Virginia Waters to Horton here… to… sorry to here from… were there any changes in your diagnosis?’
 
`Umm.. well as I say, the doctor at Virginia Waters said I was a potential neurotic… apparently in … in Long Grove they had me down as a schizophrenic, and… the doctor… the psychiatrist in Charing Cross, err… concluded I was a chronic depressive, and… well nobody’s actually said, here… Dr Robert… oh yes… umm… the staff nurse here… I said, what do you think is wrong with me…, she said `deep depression’ you see… [pause].  Oh, the… the psychiatrist, he was an old man that was a voluntary psychiatrist in [inaudible] home… he said I had a deep seated anxiety neurosis… yeah… so what… what… [laughs]’
`So… did you suffer any side effects at all, from all the medications that you had?’
 
`Oh yes..’
 
`What were they?’
 
`Largactyl… is terrible… you get stupid and fat and you… you know… umm… [pause]… I think at present, umm… I think they make me tired, the anti… I’m on anti-depressants and they make me tired… mmm’
 
`There are a few things that we just need to cover… umm… such as what was it like doing… when your doctors did their rounds, what was it like?’
 
`Well, I’ve always found them… apart from the Polish one in Long Grove… they’ve all been good… nice enough people I think, you know.  We’ve got Dr Robertson now, he’s… of course he can’t have an office any more because the hospital’s closed, but… he… he hasn’t done any psychiatry on me funnily enough… and I was thinking perhaps he thinks this woman’s been having psychiatric treatment so long she’s had enough or… or I’ve had enough of it, you know… [laughs]… he’s a pleasant man, though and… sensible man, you know…’
 
`So just looking back, what changes would you have liked to see, over the years, that over the years that you’ve been in?  To different hospitals…?’
 
`Umm… yes… with regards to the environment, you know, I don’t know if it’s important really, but in the washrooms and bathrooms it was kind of… rather nasty stone floors, and… and of course there weren’t car… we’re luxurious here really, we’ve got carpets everywhere… umm… I didn’t like being in mixed wards in the hospital, because… the men… much as one cares… sort of feels for them… they’re depressing, you know, to live with… ‘
 
`How do you mean?’
 
`Well they sit round and they.. look miserable and they don’t speak… and… you know… when I went to Maple ward… which is a female ward, I felt so much better, you know…’
 
`Which hospital was that?’
 
`This one…’
 
`Ok… uh huh…’
 
`I told the doctor about that… and he told me off’
 
`Why did he tell you off?’
 
`He said, `it’s you’re here miss that makes you depressed, not looking at the men… [laughs]… ‘
`And what did you say to him?’
 
`Oh I didn’t say any more… I can’t argue with psychiatrists…’
 
`Mmm…[pause]… what… you’ve mentioned that you’ve done a number of different jobs, but had you not suffered from depression or whatever… the diagnosis that has been given, what would you have liked to do… what sort of work would you have liked to do… continued to do?’
 
`Well… umm… I was very happy doing the book keeping and the wages… yes… yes I was happy doing that… and it was Eastbourne which is… I was… you know, my health was improved down there… [coughs]… and I… yes… but still… the usherette was deadly… absolutely deadly… and… the … I liked the office I worked in for six years… was… I was only filing… it was a wholesale book sellers, I was only filing the book orders and then when the books came in, putting appropriate order in the books, it was quite simple really, but I was terribly anxious… but it was nice there… they were young men and it was kind of a jolly atmosphere, you know… that was nice…’
 
`What type of a young person were you… were you the jolly type…?’
 
`No, I’m not the jolly type at all… you see as I say, I’m… I’ve always been low spirited… I’m, I’m made jolly by the anti-depressants, you see… yes… although with my friends I had a happy time, my close friends, you know… and at home I think it was all right, you know… got all the brothers and sisters to lark about with…’
 
`Is there anything that I haven’t covered, that you would like to add?… to what you’ve said so far?’
 
`About the anxiety neurosis that this doctor arrived at…umm… I think possibly,  my mother never put her worries on us… you know in the 1930’s… when they had most of their children to bring up, it was a very bad time wasn’t it… very bad time… economically… and… of course she had desperate… a desperately worrying time really… because my father… he didn’t have his own business… he had to work for others, and when he couldn’t get work, he just couldn’t get work you see… and… I admit my mother’s had a very worrying life really, and I think although neither of them put their worries on their children’s shoulders… I think a lot of it rubbed off onto me… and I think I was… that sort of… probably… sort of… umm… made me rather an anxious child, probably… you know…’
 
`And what was it that made you think… that it probably rubbed off on you?’
 
Well, I, I do worry, I mean I… I find I worry about things that… are not worth worrying about, you know… because things don’t… wouldn’t matter to a person who’s not that way inclined… you know… they say some people, they say, `he’s the worrying type’ don’t they… like that, you know… some people aren’t the worrying type… well I think I am the worrying type you see…’
 
`Were you closer to your  mum, more so than say other brothers and sisters?’
 
`No… no, she… she treated us all… all… as important and… her main… her main priority seemed to be… love and duty, you know… duty seems to have been a terrifically important thing to her…’
 
`Do you think she.. during your childhood days that she… could have observed that you were the worrying type?’
 
`I don’t think so… no, I don’t think she had time or energy, really… I think she had too much else on her mind… but she used to feed me on iron tonics in the winter, and she used to give us… cod liver oil [inaudible]… and every Saturday night we had syrup of figs for our bowels… you know… but I don’t think… she may have done, but she… you know, my mum she had ten all together you see… so she could hardly… I mean if she’d had two or four of course it would have been different wouldn’t it, but… she was only one woman and… she had a terrific lot on her mind and… ‘
 
`How do you know that?’
`Well she obviously did because she had to… we had to survive from week to week, you know… I remember once I would have been about three… that would be 1931 wouldn’t it… things were very bad weren’t they… and there was a knock on the door, and my mother said to me, `if that’s the rent man, tell I’m not in’, so I opened the door and it was the rent man… and umm… I said, `mummy says she’s not in…’ [laughs]… I’ve never forgotten that, you know… oh, dear, dear… ‘
 
`What was his response?’
 
`I can’t remember, I think he just went away, you know… I bet he thought… what should he do with a tot about that size, you know… I can’t argue with her… [laughs].. but it was very hard in those… she… I mean my father got paid week by week and… then he was out of work for… ‘cause there wasn’t any work, and it must have been… the worry must have been terrific really..’
 
`Just give me a brief picture as to what it was like in your home, during those hard times?’
 
`It was… of course we had no luxury you see… none whatsoever, but we always had a good dinner, [fax machine in background]… some… well… I mean I can’t remember when I was little, but from the age I can remember, we’d run in from school saying `mummy, mummy, what’s for dinner?’… [fax loudly bleeping]… umm.. we’d all sit round the table… she’d say now `eat your greens’, you know… and… well she was… [fax noise]… you know when you… grow up and you know what life is.. you think how marvellous, you know, to manage all that, and look after people and all that… marvellous… [fax in background]…’
 
`And telling you story today, how do you think it will help, to change society’s attitudes and… in terms of the stigma that exists?’
 
`Yes… I find that quite… I find that quite important actually… I think… it is gradually happening, I don’t know… in the Express, I think it was, last week, there was a senior columnist, who wrote two big double page… articles on mental illness… depression… I kept it because… one of your leaflets says that you… you collect… [inaudible]… I’ve kept them, they’re on my bed actually… if you want… if you haven’t seen it… and… I think it’s happening gradually, because these people that… err… public figures [inaudible]… in a way, when are they coming out with it, you know… even Virginia Ironside you know the agony aunt in the Mirror… she was on the radio the other day, and she became depressive you know.. she said, `when I get up in the morning’ she said, `I don’t think… ah, another day’, she just gets up… you know… same as I do… [laughs]… you see… people like that… that she meant in that… in the woman’s hour… there was a novelist, a well known novelist, I forget his name… manic depressive, he was interviewed and he said, when he’s right… when he’s hit the bottom he can’t do anything at all, umm… but when he’s coming up, he starts to write… you see… so it is coming out, these people that… that are.. notable… you know, they’re coming out with it… but otherwise, I’m so self conscious about it myself, that, I mean I… I don’t know what I can do, you know… really…’
 
`But if there was a message that you want to get across…in your story…?’
 
 `Oh, yes… I could… oh, yes… I’d like to write some… I’ve.. I’ve been thinking about it for a long time, I’m wondering where to send it, you know… I thought, with radio or…a magazine, you know… and what I was thinking was that… it’s not… err… the bits that I write maybe… maybe have to be re-… re-arranged… reorganised… but I thought if it’s any use I’d have a go at it… mmm..’
 
`So just… umm… to… to… just think back generally… what would be your hopes if you were able to get back into the community, etc… what would have been your hopes and aspirations?’
 
`What you mean for now?’
 
`Yeah…’
 
`Well I… I mean I’m seventy now and… umm… apart from doing some voluntary work, you know… sort of.. voluntary work, there isn’t much is there really, so…’
 
`But if you were not ill…’
 
`Oh yes…’
`And what would you have liked to be, or do…?’
 
`Well, I would have… I’ve written… I did a lot of writing for the hospital magazine, more than anybody else, and some of the staff… I was gratified… to hear they still remembered them, you know… and I’ve… I think I’d like to write really, you know… I couldn’t write a book, but… sort of… occasion sort of articles… you know… ‘
 
[pause]
 
`Ok… thank you Kathy…for your story…’
 
`Thanks very much…’
 
`About these… about these columns from the…’
 
[End of DVCPro tape 3 – End of VHS Tape 1]